Posted by: @dgclimatecontrol

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The amount paid even if it worked is mindblowing,

I didn't want to say that, bus since you have said it now, I agree.  This was well overpriced unless there is something about this installation that hasn't come to light.

Posted by: @jamespa

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Posted by: @dgclimatecontrol

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The amount paid even if it worked is mindblowing,

I didn't want to say that, bus since you have said it now, I agree.  This was well overpriced unless there is something about this installation that hasn't come to light.

I think most people that have read this case will agree that the price is very high. 

@drei, how many quotes did you get?

Posted by: @editor

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Posted by: @jamespa

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Posted by: @dgclimatecontrol

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The amount paid even if it worked is mindblowing,

I didn't want to say that, bus since you have said it now, I agree.  This was well overpriced unless there is something about this installation that hasn't come to light.

I think most people that have read this case will agree that the price is very high. 

@drei, how many quotes did you get?

 

For the Heat Pump, back in 2023 I only managed to get two quotes, EPC (for which I paid £400) and a small local installer who didn’t charge. Most others wanted £500+ just for a heat loss, which I couldn’t afford at the time. And honestly, every other installer I spoke to told me not to get a heat pump.

My property is a large 4 bedroom property with 200 m².

EPC positioned themselves as not the cheapest but “the best.” With no comparisons to go on, I took them at their word. Looking back, it’s clear why they now want the article removed: their whole model relies on charging premium prices without delivering premium quality.

For context, EPC had me booked for both the heat pump and a 22-panel AIKO + GivEnergy battery system, total £50k. In hindsight, the heat pump disaster was a blessing in disguise, because I cancelled the solar side before it went ahead. Posting their solar quote on the MoneySavingExpert forum exposed how overpriced it was. I then found another installer who offered 44 panels, same battery, and better kit overall, including painting my roof with reflective paint (after it was cleaned), to benefit the Eurener Bifacial panels, for the same price.

This is also why I can’t just throw money at fixing my heat pump. I’m still paying off loans.

Here are a few of the emails from that time — including my request for a solar refund and EPC’s eventual response (less their admin fee):

 

Andrei	Mon, Nov 27, 2023 at 12:11 PM
To: Neil McDonnell Cc: Marc Wilson
Dear Marc and Neil,   I am writing to follow up on our ongoing discussion regarding the solar PV installation. After much consideration and in light of recent developments with the heating system installed by EPC, I have reached a decision that, regrettably, I must request a full refund of our deposit for the solar PV installation. As you may recall, we've been experiencing persistent issues with the heat pump system, which have not been satisfactorily resolved despite ongoing communications with EPC. These issues have significantly impacted my confidence in moving forward with additional installations at this time. The unresolved nature and the overall handling of the heat pump situation have been the primary factors in this difficult decision. I am aware of the £160 penalty associated with the refund of the deposit. While I find this charge unfortunate, especially considering the circumstances are driven by issues beyond our control, I am prepared to accept this cost. The priority for me now is to focus on resolving the existing system issues before undertaking any new installations. I want to express my appreciation for your understanding and assistance in this matter. Please advise on the process for the deposit refund, including any necessary steps I need to take from my end. Thank you for your attention to this request, and I look forward to your prompt response. Best regards, A M

Marc Wilso	Tue, Nov 28, 2023 at 8:55 AM
To: Andrei Cc: Hamish Carruth, Accounts Team
Hi Andrei   I am sorry to hear that we are back at this point.  James is back in the office today having been out yesterday and I am sure he will respond to your continued concerns with the heat pump.   I will instruct Accounts to issue the refund for the solar and back up system less the associated costs.   I again apologise for the journey you have had on this, it is not the outcome that I wanted.   Kind regards     Marc Wilson | Senior Renewable Account Manager

Accounts Team	Mon, Jan 29, 2024 at 12:00 PM
To: Andrei Cc: Daniel Hibberd
Good Morning Andrei,   Daniel asked me to complete your cancelled solar project refund as below.   INV-4910 £2,462.50 less £160 admin costs = £2,302.50  Please see screenshot below showing the refund to your card original payment method. This can take a few days to be shown on your statement depending on your card issuer.   Please let me know if there are any issues.   Many Thanks Tracy Hunt | Financial and Human Resource Manager

The reason I’m pasting some of these conversations is to show the bigger picture. EPC Improvements have now contacted Mars directly and demanded my story be removed from Renewable Heating Hub.

I haven’t shared everything yet, but I do have a full archive of emails, quotes, reports, and invoices that evidence my case from start to finish. For now, I’ll keep it private, though I could redact personal info and release more if there’s interest. I’ve already provided the complete pack to Renewable Heating Hub, and I’ll be supplying it to MCS, RECC, and Trading Standards.

If EPC want to challenge my account, I’m more than ready.

Posted by: @drei

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My property is a large 4 bedroom property with 200 m².

@drei If that's the right figure, it's the same size as mine and, unless it has terrible insulation, should be absolutely no problem at all.

Unfortunately I fear, based on your story, that you may have been the victim of a dodgy trader, a phenomenon which is not uncommon, so far as I can tell, in the construction industry, and not particularly special to heat pumps (I personally lost  a shedload with a dodgy roofer only a few years ago, and I have encountered any number in a professional capacity - in addition, I should say, to some who were absolutely excellent!). Thay said anything with a grant attached seems disproportionately to attract such traders, sadly.

I had a look back through the posts (admittedly on a phone so I might have missed something).  I can't see any detail of the house or the system.

Maybe this can be fixed without much expense if it's gone about in the right way, or at least made much better.

Are you in interested in posting some detail about the house, the system and the third party report on the problems to find out if anyone here can make some low cost suggestions which you could implement.  Don't bother with the history, it might help in litigation but won't help find a solution.

I'm certainly willing to give it a go (no liability or guarantees of course) and I'm sure others will too, but only if you are serious.

I can understand if you aren't interested, but sometimes self help is the best help, and may allow you to seize control back and emerge triumphant, rather than being an unhappy, and probably stressed, victim.

Posted by: @jamespa

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Posted by: @drei

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My property is a large 4 bedroom property with 200 m².

Are you in interested in posting some detail about the house, the system and the third party report on the problems to find out if anyone here can make some low cost suggestions which you could implement.  Don't bother with the history, it might help in litigation but won't help find a solution.

I'm certainly willing to give it a go (no liability or guarantees of course) and I'm sure others will too, but only if you are serious.

I can understand if you aren't interested, but sometimes self help is the best help, and may allow you to seize control back and emerge triumphant, rather than being an unhappy, and probably stressed, victim.

@jamespa thanks, I appreciate the offer. For now, I’m trying to get this done properly or at least as close as possible to the standard it should have been from the start.

I’m already in contact with Mars and I pass information across to him regularly. To be honest, he has access to everything, sounds ominous, but it’s intentional. I want to keep things transparent and make sure progress keeps moving, especially with so many different things happening in the background.

That said, I’ll drop you my number. Maybe we can arrange a quick WhatsApp video call so I can give you a tour, might be easier than trying to explain everything in text.

@drei

Willing as I am to help, I don't think I'm yet prepared to have a WhatsApp call.  The advantage of doing it 'in public' is that any ideas put forward get peer reviewed and augmented, which is useful, and it maintains a level of anonymity. 

If you post the (a) the report (personal information redacted if necessary), (b) the design documentation that the installers produced (ditto) and (c) a bit of a description of how you operate the system (TRVs/Thermostats/pure WC/24/7/timed etc) and (d) what are the operational symptoms that you think need fixing (eg house/some rooms not warm enough, costs too much to run (how much) etc. then that should be enough to go on as a starting point.  If you want to share the documents confidently to save the trouble of redaction that's ok, provided you are happy I reply publically and in doing so am free to summarise key info without revealing any names etc.

Posted by: @jamespa

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@drei

Willing as I am to help, I don't think I'm yet prepared to have a WhatsApp call.  The advantage of doing it 'in public' is that any ideas put forward get peer reviewed and augmented, which is useful, and it maintains a level of anonymity. 

If you post the (a) the report (personal information redacted if necessary), (b) the design documentation that the installers produced (ditto) and (c) a bit of a description of how you operate the system (TRVs/Thermostats/pure WC/24/7/timed etc) and (d) what are the operational symptoms that you think need fixing (eg house/some rooms not warm enough, costs too much to run (how much) etc. then that should be enough to go on as a starting point.  If you want to share the documents confidently to save the trouble of redaction that's ok, provided you are happy I reply publically and in doing so am free to summarise key info without revealing any names etc.

Hi James, it's OK for now. I am already in contact with two engineers and they have provided me with the necessary quotes based on the assessment report and a home visit. I was hoping to get one last quote from a Heat Geek Elite, that could actually double check what the assessment report states and the two below.

This is what I have received so far:

QUOTE 1:

Supply all labour and materials to facilitate the following works:-
- Partial drain down and adaptation of existing pipework to facilitate the following works:-
- Revert pipework to traditional 4 pipe buffer hydraulic construction.
- Upgrade existing primary flow pump to Grundfoss Magna 1 25-120 circulation pump
- Relocation of existing heating circuit circulation pump from return pipe to flow pipe
- Supply and installation of isolation valves to all tappings on buffer tank
- Supply and installation of Honeywell V4044C diverter valve to control distribution of primary water between DHW and Buffer cylinder.
- Re-hang radiator with suitable plasterboard fixings
- Supply and installation of inline flush and fill point
- Refill system with proprietary heat transfer fluid to manufacturers recommended concentration

QUOTE 2:

1. to replace and relocate some existing radiators as per your calculations to get the correct sizes as far as is possible in each of the rooms. Although this will still leave some rooms with a short fall this will most likely not be felt except in the coldest days of the year when you may need to use some ancillary heaters in those rooms. For most of the heating seasons this shortfall will be negligible as out side temperatures will not be low enough for it to be felt.
   I have carried out calculations for the pipework sizing and most of the pipework should be suitable. However various assumptions have been made regarding routes and sizes of existing pipework as it is not possible for me to determine without destructive investigations. Therefore, this information is only approximate and done to the best of my knowledge with the available information.
2. to reconfigure the layout to a more direct piping arrangement by replacing the two pumps with one larger pump and to remove the current buffer and install a 35L volumizer to make up the correct amount of free volume with the volume in the primary pipework.
3. to replace the current diverter valve with a new sprung return type as the existing valve is very noisy in operation.
4. to drain out the current glycol antifreeze mixture and install x2 antifreeze valves on the lowest points of pipework by the air source heat pump. This should increase the efficiency of the heat pump as the specific heat capacity of water will be higher than the antifreeze mixture. Biocide and corrosion inhibitor will be added to prevent corrosion and bacterial growth in the system water.
5. to arrange for an electrician to install a light in the airing cupboard for maintenance purposes. Also to install two mini meters in the ancillary consumer unit for the ashp system so that power used by the ashp and immersion heater can be fully recorded and monitored for future use.

Glad you got 2 quotes, it sounds like things are moving forward.

I dont get:

Posted by: @drei

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- Revert pipework to traditional 4 pipe buffer hydraulic construction.

Surely this is going the wrong way!  Has the provider of the first quote actually understood what needs to be done?  Most of what he is offering will make bu**er all difference

Posted by: @jamespa

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Glad you got 2 quotes, it sounds like things are moving forward.

 

I dont get:

Posted by: @drei

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- Revert pipework to traditional 4 pipe buffer hydraulic construction.

Surely this is going the wrong way!  Has the provider of the first quote actually understood what needs to be done?  Most of what he is offering will make bu**er all difference

I would hope so:) but this is why a Heat Geek Elite quote would really help. I had one booked in but had to cancel last minutes. Just hoping I can get them in this week. This was a free visit.

By the way, both quotes also cover replacing ALL radiators to new ones that meet the heat demand, and repurposing whatever double columns I have as necessary.

Posted by: @drei

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I would hope so:) but this is why a Heat Geek Elite quote would really help. I had one booked in but had to cancel last minutes. Just hoping I can get them in this week. This was a free visit.

IMHO hope isnt enough in a situation like this.  My strong advice to you is, before you proceed, get the chosen quote validated against either common sense or the report you have. 

The person who produced quote number 1 doesn't mention radiator replacements at all, is doing a lot of stuff that will make no difference to your system (although its not bad practice) and appears to be retaining the buffer not converting it to a volumiser or getting rid of it altogether.  If he does what he has actually put down put down in writing you very likely wont be much better off and will have blown your 'section 75' option.

@drei, remind me again which county you're based in.

@drei Id be wary of the reference in quote 1 to reattach the radiator using suitable plasterboard fixings. Assuming it’s a fairly substantial radiator, the most secure method is surely going to be noggins/battens behind and then reboard?