Hi 

After several weeks of pestering, an engineer turned up today to look to fix the issue.  The suggestion is that the intake for cold water was put in at the top of the tank when it was originally installed and understandably that'd mess stratification up so it's now been moved to lower down (not sure exactly how low).  

So I'll monitor the temperature and hw energy consumption closely over next day or two.  If that's the issue why on earth they decided to connect it that way.... and it's been like that for 5 years...

Mike 

Hi,

FYI an update of sorts.

So I agree the system doesn't appear to work as a hot water cylinder but instead contains hot water and water is passed through this to be heated up.  There's a heat plate on the side and this is 'somehow' used then to heat the hotwater as it's passed through. 

A visit from the installer suggest that the issue has been due to stratification being weakened, that when warm water from the heatpump is put into the tank to add energy, it was done so at the top of the tank and so disturbed the hot water.  So they have just changed the pipework so instead that water from the heat pump is added at the bottom  However based upon results from today, it's made no difference at all.  

Posted by: @errmm

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Hi,

FYI an update of sorts.

So I agree the system doesn't appear to work as a hot water cylinder but instead contains hot water and water is passed through this to be heated up.  There's a heat plate on the side and this is 'somehow' used then to heat the hotwater as it's passed through. 

A visit from the installer suggest that the issue has been due to stratification being weakened, that when warm water from the heatpump is put into the tank to add energy, it was done so at the top of the tank and so disturbed the hot water.  So they have just changed the pipework so instead that water from the heat pump is added at the bottom  However based upon results from today, it's made no difference at all.  

 

Sorry to hear that but I'm not surprised TBH.  Stratification is effective in a normal unvented tank where the hot water is drawn off at the top.  In a regular thermal store much less so because the water to be heated passes through much of the depth of the tank.  It does have some effect if properly designed and properly plumbed, but nothing like as much as for a normal UVC.  However it sounds like this particular thermal store has is a plate heat exchanger (PHE) on the side, so instead of the water to be heated passing through the tank, the water from the thermal store passes through the PHE via a circulator, with the water to be heated passing through the other side of the PHE.  This is effective for heat transfer but will totally destroy stratification.  This being the case, and assuming I have understood your description of the unit correctly, I wouldn't expect the change that has been made to make any material difference.

Thermal stores are not particularly compatible with the way we typically operate ASHPs.  That doesn't mean that they cant be made to work, but it does mean you have to think carefully about how you operate them, what your DHW demands and whether these can realistically be satisfied.  In practice therefore they are rarely fitted.  In this case it sounds rather like the careful thought has not been done.  It further sounds like the installer doesn't understand what he is doing, which is also no surprise.

Its possible that if this unit is correctly configured and operated it could be made to work - presumably the manufacturers has something in mind when they came up with this (?), but an installer who hasn't a clue what he is doing randomly replumbing things isn't likely to succeed.  There are several things that might be wrong with the plumbing or configuration that possibly could be fixed, but its equally possible that it is just unsuitable for the use case in question.  

The quick fix, if its an R290 ASHP and the controls will allow, is to increase the target temperature in the store to 70C, or perhaps 65.  An R290 ASHP should be capable of doing that and it will more than double the amount of usable water available.  If its an R32 ASHP then you might try a target of 60C which will still be a whole lot better than 50C.  If its an R410 heat pump you are out of luck, because this older refrigerant cant heat hot enough.

Failing that the obvious way forward is to replace it with a normal UVC.  That will require some replumbing and reconfiguration, and a drain to the outside or a suitable existing drain.

Given how much this unit presumably cost, I would have personally hoped for better service than you appear to be experiencing.  I suggest it may be time to get tough assuming of course that the householder's DHW demands themselves are reasonable, ie that they have not got unreasonable expectations.

Thanks for such a comprehensive response!!!

The system uses R290

The max it can heat dhw is 50, anything more than that the installer has to do but they said if they do that compressor has to work harder and I'm personally not keen if they run a system off standard range.  Unless they say ok we'll cover that part for parts and labour for free....

You're right about performance, the household ran a bath and the temp dropped 13c and so basically was useless after that.  I've set a higher set back temp so it kicks in to reheat but a system that size that requires a reheat after two showers or 1 bath....

In terms of the installer they said the recommendation on how it should be installed changed from when it went in originally so the change now was to match that.

Personally I don't see how this thing is fit for purpose.  I feel it's probably a workaround for the fact the heat pump doesn't like creating water at higher temperatures for a legionella cycle, I can't see any advantages to it compared to a standard cylinder (I say this a a very non expert). 

At the moment I feel like I want a call with the installer and manufacturer.  How is this system good for anyone unless it's got a high set back temp and if they can't fix it, swap for traditional system.

Again thanks so so much, you've clearly got a tons of expertise but I'm glad I'm not entirely barking up the wrong tree 

Mike 

It does sound like a thermal store with plate heat ex for hot water. An unusual set up for a heat pump i must say. The R290 is more than capable of higher temperatures without stressing the components, even a 5ºc rise to MCS's maximum of 55ºc will help. It will be difficult to get stratification in tha set up as you'll have two inputs and two outputs (One set from the heat pump and one set to the plate) unlike a standard unvented that only has the clod in and hot out (The system water being separated in the coil). It may be better the opposite way round, by using the cylinder (if suitable) as the vessel for the domestic hot water, then 'plate loading' it with the heat pump, that way you get the whole cylinder's worth of hot water, and if at 55ºc would be a decent amount. It wouldn't stratify, but that may be in your favor to reduce the chance of running out.

Posted by: @errmm

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At the moment I feel like I want a call with the installer and manufacturer.  How is this system good for anyone unless it's got a high set back temp and if they can't fix it, swap for traditional system.

 

If by traditional system you mean uvc and by setback temperature you mean dhw target temperature then this is a good summary.

R290 should be good for a flow temp of 75 which is why I suggested the quick fix of increasing the target thermal store temp.  But in reality fitting a thermal store is a perverse decision unless there is a very specific reason.

I must say that this install is sounding more and more like a bodge, and it's genuinely worrying given that I know who the installers are and they have, by all accounts, a good reputation in the industry.

At this stage I'd be pressing the installers (and Heliotherm) hard for confirmation of the true max safe DHW target, a proper Legionella assessment at current temps & realistic reheat/draw-off specs... and if they still insist this is normal then seriously consider ditching the thermal store entirely for a standard unvented cylinder loaded directly by the heat pump (even if it means some replumbing) because after five years of suboptimal performance, the householder deserves far better than vague excuses for what is a premium product.

@errmm with the Heliotherm fresh hot water system, having the Plate Heat Exchanger, being the right hand of the two cylinders in your photo That tank being available in 300, 500 litre and two larger sizes.

What if anything is the left hand cylinder contributing to the DHW when theres a hot water demand. Is there any circulation between the two cylinders to combine the usable volume and make the heat stored in the left hand cylinder available to the PHE?