Interesting read and MCS are as you say, beyond useless.

Our installer was accredited before our installation, but were suspended by them/NAPIT 2 weeks prior to the job commencing . When issues cropped up after they'd started , I checked again hence it coming to light.

The company continued to advertise themselves on their website as MCS accredited throughout. I told them [MCS] about this and they literally could not have been less interested. They have since reaccredited them and without even asking about what issues we had. You'd think they would have a problem with the fact that the company effectively breached their contract with us by installing an ASHP under the guise of being MCS backed, when they werent.

When I asked them why they weren't keen to know, or indeed audit our install, they said because the company had been suspended so the installation quality was nothing to do with them.

@dgclimatecontrol 

Have a look at the article and my comments below, I’d really value your take. I come from a technical background, so logic, maths and science are things I both enjoy and use in my work. For me, this whole journey has been a learning process.

Any criticism is welcome, and I’m happy to be corrected if I’ve misunderstood something. If the information I’ve shared is accurate, then I think more people need to be aware of it.

I also wonder whether some of the mathematical points and pitfalls I’ve run into are already covered in the Guide to Heat Pumps book available to pre-order on here. Honestly, £20 to potentially avoid a £10k+ mistake seems like a very small price to pay, regardless of whether you ultimately go ahead with a heat pump or not.

@Mars

Please feel free to share these with your podcast guests for their perspective. This is the kind of information that, as far as I can tell, isn’t available in one place anywhere else, nor clearly explained.

Even resources like the Heat Geeks video here

In Adman's example: will your radiator actually see 50 °C flow water from your heat pump? That’s the catch. A Type 22 panel radiator is roughly rated at 2200 W (7600 BTU) at ΔT50, to match Adam's figures of 1080 W, assumes 55 °C flow and 50 °C return with a 21 °C room temperature. On paper, that looks fine. But in practice:

• At a 47.5 °C mean water temperature, output drops to around 768 W which is OK for the 500 W required room heat loss mentioned by Adam.
• If you’re aiming for a 23 °C room temperature, it falls to about 655 W which may or may not be enough if on a ground floor, but nowhere near, as Adam puts it "way above the 500 watts needed".

You’re better off using the calculation formula I posted as a comment in the article, because it applies accurately to any radiator rather than relying on generalised tables

If you Google “how to work out heat pump radiator size”, the AI summary gives a vague statement (without specifics):

“Radiator output drops: A radiator that provides 1000 watts at a high temperature will output significantly less (e.g., around 350 watts) at the lower temperatures of a heat pump system.”

If you click through to the Aura Retrofit article, they explain it more clearly:

“If we look at a radiator that gives out 1000 watts at these figures, when we change the conditions to be flow 45 °C onto the radiator and 40 °C off the radiator as for a Heat Pump system, then the heat output of the radiator drops to be about 350 watts.”

That’s pretty accurate, and it matches the formula I’ve provided. But the issue is: how many people actually click through, see the numbers, and understand the reason why? Most will only see the oversimplification, vague AI summary, and without the maths behind it, they won’t grasp how critical this drop in output really is.

And on a wider point, I personally believe that just like the PPI claims, diesel claims, and now car finance claims, we’ll start seeing heat pump claims coming through in 5–10 years’ time.

@benson If you have issues with yours and haven't had it working quite as expected, I would go through home insurance (especially if you have legal cover) and Credit Card if paid with.

As I mentioned in my previous comment, I foresee huge Heat Pump claim movement coming up soon, going to take some time for the solicitors and regulatory parties to wake up to it.

@drei yes I sought advice from our home insurance, and we paid in part by credit card. What protected us and drove our installers to rectify some of the issues were the payment terms ie large final payment, and making sure we weren’t liable for any failure to redeem the BUS voucher. We then used this as leverage. 

As you say, customers need to take steps to protect themselves as MCS won’t. 

Posted by: @drei

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That’s pretty accurate, and it matches the formula I’ve provided. But the issue is: how many people actually click through, see the numbers, and understand the reason why? Most will only see the oversimplification, vague AI summary, and without the maths behind it, they won’t grasp how critical this drop in output really is.

This is one of my biggest bugbears these days, how AI does make fools of us all (if we let it, which too many people do). Google's AI is just a text  aggregator with zero intelligence. It picks seemingly random results from its own results from the search question, without any attempt to assess the quality of the information, and then regurgitates the text, in prose riddled with caveats ("A radiator running at a lower flow temperature will most likely have a lower output etc etc"). Yet, despite these weasel caveat clauses, the AI summary is nonetheless presented in such a way as to suggest it is authoritative. To a generation unused to looking at primary sources (ie established text and reference books), the unchecked and unconsidered google quick fix is second nature, but at a terrible cost to knowledge. Just as satnav destroys not just the ability to navigate using a map, but also the sense of direction, so AI destroys something even more fundamental, our intellect, and our ability to understand.    

To paraphrase, those who would give up a little intellectual curiosity to gain a quick answer, deserve neither.    

@cathoderay agreed, and I hope that the Renewable Heating Hub starts coming up in Google searches more and more. It seems to be one of the few places that has the good and the ugly in one place. If Mars is putting together that heat pump guide book, and has all the relevant information, I hope it becomes the black bible of heat pump for future owners and even installers.

Now posting on the right topic....

With general building/home improvement works, we the consumers would ordinarily take steps to protect ourselves from poor workmanship. Fundamentally this comes down to a reasonable deposit, and then a schedule of payments, or indeed full payment once the job is complete.

For whatever reason, ashp installations with the BUS grant by and large seem to be different. The vast majority of our quotes effectively stipulated that we must pay all of the outstanding balance, minus the grant, before work has even started. The ts and cs even went on to explain that any failure in BUS grant redemption would result in the customer being fully liable for this amount as well. The authorisation of the grant of course needs to go through the customer, to sign off.

Quotes such as the above- to be honest we just didn’t entertain them. 

Clearly we can’t profess to saying that we chose our installers wisely, but what I can say is that we are mostly compensated. We had our installers where we wanted them from day 1, to a degree.

Once anyone has all their money, the only leverage you have is the threat of leaving them a bad review. I didn’t expect anything more from MCS or NAPIT to be honest, than we got. 

@drei I was very sorry to read this heartbreaking story.  It is bad enough to feel you have been ripped off, but being cold at home with your family must make it doubly bad.  On top of that, you seem to be stuck for a route to fix the problem.

It seems that you have moved forward to the position that you have a clear definition of the root causes of the problem and a design for a solution that will fix them.  The key challenges remaining are to find three companies willing to quote for the project to support your Section 75 claim and one of those companies willing and well qualified to actually do the work.  Of course, you will need the installers to support you afterwards, for which they would expect payment.

I can see why a prospective installer might be wary of picking up the job.  

1. They have only a 1 in 3 chance of getting the work.  
2. They would be missing out on some profit from the original project, because they won’t be making a margin on the heat pump.
3. Given that the previous installation failed, there might be an increased risk that they would also fail.  It will be obvious to them that you would not let them off the hook.  This might cost them money and damage their reputation.
4. A Section 75 claim might involve them in bureaucracy, which could do add to their costs.
5. If you are a long way away from their base, the installation and subsequent support might cost them extra due to travel time.

I’m sorry that this list sounds discouraging, but it seems to be another problem that you need to solve.  How do you motivate them - why should they help you and what is in it for them?

Two things that might motivate them are money and positive publicity.  

You might need to pay the three companies to give you the quotes - galling I know, but the Section 75 might save you more money than you would spend.

Maybe, you could find a “hero installer” similar to the Urban Plumber.  You might be able to trade the offer of a publicity video about them heroically fixing your disaster, in return for the benefit of doing the work for you.  No doubt, you would still have to pay for the work.  It’s a bit of a long shot, but it might be worth a try.

These are just my thoughts,  but I hope they may be helpful in some way.

@drei

When I was in local government we were of course under a duty to get best value, a duty we took very seriously BTW.  Generally getting 3 or more quotes was the way to do this, but sometimes the market wouldn't oblige, it just wasn't interested.  Sometimes we got only 1 quote (very occasionally none)  In this case we went to some pains to ensure that we could demonstrate we had made a serious effort to get quotes and, as long as long as we had one which we were happy with, we went with that, and if we got zero we changed our approach to make it more attractive.

Another thing we did was set a reasonable deadline for submissions.  If a job needs doing it needs doing, and we can't wait forever.  

I think the same principle should apply here and I doubt that the section 75 obligations provide a get out for the bank just because you cant get 3 quotes, provided you have made a serious effort to do so.

So my advice to you (unless you have already succeeded) is to go about it systematically and retain the evidence so you can show you have.  So you might for example email all mcs installers within say a 20 Mike radius giving the detail and 1 week to confirm interest, 4 weeks to submit a quote.  Then simply package it all to and send it to the bank.  I don't think they can argue given that you have also advertised here.

If you get no expressions if interest after a week you can then approach the bank and say OK, what do you want me to do?  The ball is then in their court and they may indeed suggest paying installers to quote (in which case they will have to stump up) or doing it on a t&m basis.

If I were an installer (which im not) I would probably be reluctant to offer a fixed price, but might just do it on t&m with a floor price (ie a minimum fee).

Whatever you do I would try to make the timescale and process deterministic for your own sanity.

I hope there is something in there that helps.

Posted by: @grahamf

↑

Maybe, you could find a “hero installer” similar to the Urban Plumber.  You might be able to trade the offer of a publicity video about them heroically fixing your disaster, in return for the benefit of doing the work for you.  No doubt, you would still have to pay for the work.  It’s a bit of a long shot, but it might be worth a try.

These are just my thoughts,  but I hope they may be helpful in some way.

Funny story Graham, when I started looking to get the heat pump installer, Szymon from Urban Plumbers was the first one I contacted, as I watched pretty much all his videos. Despite being 50 miles from him, he didn't cover my area, when I asked his suggestion on finding a competent installer, he told me to use the Heat Geek map.

This is going to be uncomfortable to post but maybe it will bring further clarity and show some, that despite my best intention, I had the worst of luck.

Going over my old e-mails is quite painful and makes me realise what an idiot I was, to push so hard with the heat pump, should have installed the best gas boiler money could buy, that could also do weather compensation, or run it like we always ran our previous boiler (manual weather comp) and be done.

Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 6:09 PM

Hi Szymon,

Thank you for your time earlier on the phone.

We have recently purchased a property in Colchester. The property is a 2003 build and no improvements have been done since then, so a new central heating system is much needed. Due to current energy prices and climate change, we wanted to look at the possibility of going off-gas completely. We also have two year old twins, and we must do all we can for their future.

Please see below link to photos of the property:

MEDIAFIRE.COM "https://www.mediafire.com/XXXXXX"

I have also attached the property plans, radiator and room measurements to this e-mail.

Some of the options I have been looking at are solar panels in conjunction with a heat pump and infra red panels to help the heat pump when needed. In regards to radiators, the ones in the plan are current radiator locations. However, as we need to rip out all the carpet and old radiators, I would be open to underfloor heating on the 1st and 2nd floor, if suggested as a better more efficient option for the heat pump.
The property has an electric water cylinder system (BoilerMate 2000) one the 2nd floor used as a backup to an Ideal Classic Gas Boiler on the ground floor in the utility room. Doing my research on options, and potential savings due to the air pump grant, I eventually ended on your YouTube channel, very informative and amazing work. I know what it is like, to take pride in the work you do, and a rare quality these days.

I would be forever grateful if you could put us in touch with the relevant partners in Essex, maybe someone that can do multiple upgrades rather than focus just on one? If it helps, we would be happy to be a featured site for anyone if they can provide a discount. I have to ask as we need to do some building work too, and in a few years we need to look into new more efficient windows, so we are definitely breaking the bank and taking all we have on this one, but I hope it is a worthwhile investment.

Thank you very much. Looking forward to hearing from you.

Best regards,
AM

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Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 4:33 PM

Andrei,

Yes I received your emails.

Apologies, but it seems I may not have time to be able to help with this,

May be worth checking a heat geek map on google and looking for a local Elite installer?

Thanks,

S.

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Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 2:51 PM

Hi Syzmon,

Thanks for the suggestion, I have reached out to an elite installer in Ipswich and two other installer in the area. I have been told that I shouldn't bother putting in a heat-pump and I would be better off with a gas-boiler... which has thrown me off, as I have already removed all the carpet and taken out all the old radiators. The only two options I have been presented with is Gas Boiler or Hybrid system, which will cost the same or more than if going with a heat pump.

Kind regards,
Andrei

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Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 10:35 PM

Andrei,

Would you mind letting me know who the elite or other heat geek installers were?

Thanks,

Szymon

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Tue, Jul 4, 2023 at 2:53 AM

Hi Szymon,

Thanks for your reply and apologise for bombarding you with information. It seems so hard to find someone competent and confident in their capabilities to get the correct designs done, so the pump won't drain our finances or freeze us in winter time.

I have used the search function on the Heat Geek website and have reached out to:

1) www.smartheatingsolutions.co.uk Smart Heating Solutions Ltd (Heat Geek Elite), they seem to be extremely expensive judging by their reviews. They responded and mentioned that they aim to achieve SCOP of 3.5 on their installations, they want £500+VAT for the heat assessment. So I put them on hold for now. Debating if they are worth the premium cost.
2) www.alter-heating.co.uk Michal Kotowski from Alternative Heating Solutions Limited ( Heat Geek Certified), came around last week Friday, but I haven't received anything from him, I will chase up today.
3) I haven't reached out to Matthew Sage - Matt Sage Plumbing & Heating LTD www.mattsage.co.uk He is based in Clacton and is ( Heat Geek Certified).
4) epc-improvements.co.uk in Chelmsford ( Heat Geek Certified) did respond and were great but the manager is away until tomorrow, they want to do a heat assessment conducted by a 3rd party they work with at £300+VAT, which is better than the £600 from Smart Heating.
5) Cahill Renewable - refused to look into the heat pump and told us to improve on what we had but provided a quote for solar panels.
6) Westross Plumbing and Heating Engineers, are the current company doing the work in the property, they are happy yo look into a Heat Pump installation, but recommended that we either go with a new efficient gas boiler or go with hybrid solution. According to Westross, Cahill and SolarHome, anything built before 2015 shouldn't have a heat pump installed as the properties not properly insulated and the heat pump won't be able to provide a comfortable environment.

It is worth mentioning that we have now started the work in the property, all the old radiators have been taken out, as well as all the carpet, I need to move pretty swiftly in case any piping alteration must be done before we put in the new flooring.

At the moment the choices I have are Smart Heating but pay a premium cost for their services, EPC Improvements and maybe Michal from Alter Heating if he provides a quote and is still interested.
Hearing horror stories of badly installed heat pumps that caused people to have £1000+ monthly electric bills, plus being locked out of controllers or having to wait months for the installers to return, I have reached out to theheatinghub.co.uk. They seem to have good reviews on Trustpilot and have been mentioned in various media outlets.

Happy to go with the three companies found on Heat Geek, Smart Heating Solutions, Alternative Heating Solutions or EPC Improvements if you think this is my best route. or I can engage with The Heating Hub and work with their recommended installer.

I am forever grateful and appreciate your input, anything you can do to help or any advice you can offer will help us tremendously.

Best regards,
Andrei

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Fri, Nov 22, 2024 at 1:13 PM

Hi Szymon,

I hope this message finds you well. I am reaching out because you may genuinely be my only hope in navigating this incredibly overwhelming situation with a poorly installed Air Source Heat Pump (ASHP) system.

I’m not sure if you remember, but I contacted you last year to see if you could handle our installation. Unfortunately, you weren’t covering our area at the time. After much deliberation, we went ahead with another installer, investing over £18,000 plus a £5,000 BUS grant in what we believed would be a safe, efficient, and high-quality system for our home and family. What we’ve been left with is not only a financial strain but also a system that has caused real danger to my family.

Despite promises from the installer, the ASHP has consistently underperformed. The SCOP averages around 2.1 and has dropped as low as 1.88—far below the MCS minimum standard of 2.8 and nowhere near the performance we were assured. The system cycles constantly, uses excessive energy, and fails to provide consistent heating throughout the home. We are spending more than ever on energy bills, yet the heating is inconsistent and inefficient.

The most devastating part of this experience is the safety risks it has created. One of the radiators, poorly installed without adequate support, detached from the wall and injured my three-year-old daughter. This incident has been heartbreaking for us. The thought that such a significant investment could put my family at risk has been incredibly distressing. Attempts to resolve this with the installer have been met with delays, excuses, or complete indifference. I’ve also attached a video of the radiator incident, hoping that seeing the situation first-hand might convey the severity of what we’re dealing with.

I feel like I’m running out of options, and it’s emotionally exhausting. A mutual friend, who helped with our solar installation, recommended that I try reaching out to you again after seeing our situation. I hesitated because I had been trying to solve this locally, but it’s become impossible. You truly are my last hope in stopping this haemorrhaging ASHP from continuing to be a burden and a hazard.

If you could offer any guidance or recommend someone with the expertise to assess and resolve these issues, I would be deeply grateful. I would even be happy to have my case shared on your platform to raise awareness about the importance of proper installation and prevent others from going through this ordeal.

Thank you for taking the time to read this, and please let me know if you might be able to help.

With gratitude,
Andrei

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Sun, Nov 24, 2024 at 4:14 PM

Hi,

As before - I still do not cover your area,

Sorry,

Szymon

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Sun, Nov 24, 2024 at 4:37 PM

Hi Szymon,

Thank you for your reply, and I completely understand. I wasn’t sure if you covered our area, but I was truly hoping that perhaps you might consider making an exception in our case.

The installation we’ve been left with has caused us so much distress and ongoing issues that we’re at a loss for what to do. We have two young daughters, both three years old, and it’s been a real struggle trying to keep the property warm while managing costs that are spiralling out of control.

We’ve heard so many great things about your work, and that’s why we reached out again, hoping for any guidance or help you might be able to offer—even if it’s just a recommendation for someone with your level of expertise and dedication.

Thank you for taking the time to respond, and I truly appreciate any advice or suggestions you might have.

Kind regards,
Andrei

During our selection process, EPC became Heat Geek Certified and Verified, hence the reason why they were selected above all.

At that time it was unheard of having to pay £600 just to get a quote, so for me the prospect of losing £600 scared me away from Smart Heating Solutions, which by the way, are still on the Heat Geek recommended network as Elite Installer, and was a choice that will forever haunt me (1st mistake was getting a heat pump, 2nd mistake was getting a heat pump, since there was no guarantee that Smart Heating Solutions or the heating hub would have been any better).

Regardless if I ever fix the heat pump, and if it works as it should, if we ever move, or if my heat pump needs replacing. I will just get a gas boiler as replacement. The pain, stress, and everything I put my family through, is just not worth it. 

P.S. If a reply was not posted above, it means Szymon did not reply.

@drei Oh dear, so is this system brand new and still not working and you are in the middle of perusing the installer? I can see your having trouble getting the top installers to take a look at it as they are in the wrong areas but what solution are you looking for at the moment, just to get it going, change everything that needs changing or a compromise? 

I am surprised with how many HeatGeeks on the map that you cannot get one of them to take a look in your area. 

Forgive me If I have already been told this or should see it weeks ago in the thread but I see so many and help where I can I loose track.

KR 

The amount paid even if it worked is mindblowing, I'm assuming the property is say 400sq.m plus.  Ive read a few other comments and seeing that its hoped a scop of 3.6 could be achieved! If we ever fitted a system and it achieved just that I'd be extremely unhappy. It has to be over 4 to compete with NG, in the summer when mostly used for just hot water cop should be around 6.