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Plate heat exchanger considerations

 
Air Source Heat Pumps (ASHPs)
Last Post by Scalextrix 2 hours ago
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 Scalextrix
(@scalextrix)
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Topic starter 06/05/2025 6:45 pm  

Considering an ASHP and an issue has cropped up.  Heat loss calcs show 5-8kW (depending on who you believe).

We currently have a vented central heating system, I'm worried about moving to a pressurised system because of the danger of pipe leaks.

I suspect the copper pipe in the concrete floors downstairs is as old as the house (~60 years), and I see no evidence of there being separation between the concrete and copper.  We did have a minor pinhole leak in the loft when an old pipe had corroded probably due to flux corrosion.

The consequences of a leak in the floor would be quite large, we have fairly new flooring throughout.

So I'm thinking to request there be a plate heat exchanger to keep the ASHP and DHW tank pressurised, and leave the CH vented.  Clearly both sides need pumping, which is a disadvantage, and clearly some efficiency will be lost, does anyone have direct experience?

Let's say the CH system should have a flow of 45C, how hot would the ASHP have to run, 46, 47?

What about the difference in flow rates?

Are there other problems?


   
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bontwoody
 bontwoody
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06/05/2025 6:53 pm  

@scalextrix I cant help with the CH side but you might look at the plate heat exchanger used with a mixergy cylinder to get a handle on the DHW. By all accounts it works very efficiently. see here https://energy-stats.uk/mixergy-heat-pump-performance/

House-2 bed partial stone bungalow, 5kW Samsung Gen 6 ASHP (Self install)
6.9 kWp of PV
5kWh DC coupled battery
Blog: https://thegreeningofrosecottage.weebly.com/
Heatpump Stats: http://heatpumpmonitor.org/system/view?id=60


   
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 Johnmo
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06/05/2025 7:05 pm  

Posted by: @scalextrix
↑

suspect the copper pipe in the concrete floors downstairs is as old as the house (~60 years), and I see no evidence of there being separation between the concrete and copper.  We did have a minor pinhole leak in the loft when an old pipe had corroded probably due to flux corrosion.

You are sitting on a ticking bomb, which isn't going to do you any favours at some point. Good chance the pipe is too small as well (?).

I would bite the bullet and do a proper job, especially as the tax payer is likely to pick-up most the cost.

Posted by: @scalextrix
↑

how hot would the ASHP have to run, 46, 47?

Depends how big the PHE is. At low temperature they need to be huge to get minimal differences in flow temperature.

Maxa i32V5 6kW ASHP (heat and cooling)
6.5kW PV
13.5kW GivEnergy AIO Battery.


   
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 Scalextrix
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Topic starter 06/05/2025 7:19 pm  

Posted by: @johnmo
↑

Good chance the pipe is too small as well (?).

No, the pipe sizing is very adequate, 15mm to rads and 22mm primary for each floor in the building.  None of it needs changing from a sizing perspective.

 

Posted by: @johnmo
↑

Depends how big the PHE is.

Ok so how big does it need to be?


   
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 Scalextrix
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Topic starter 06/05/2025 7:25 pm  

@bontwoody thanks, I see they are supposed to be 90% efficient or more.

 

So maybe if I use that as a rule of thumb, a 45C flow from the ASHP would give 40.5C into the radiators.


   
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 Johnmo
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06/05/2025 7:33 pm  

Posted by: @scalextrix
↑

@bontwoody thanks, I see they are supposed to be 90% efficient or more.

 

So maybe if I use that as a rule of thumb, a 45C flow from the ASHP would give 40.5C into the radiators.

There are sizing calculators online. The basics are the the higher the temperature the smaller the PHE can be. The PHE in a combi boiler is pretty small. But your max temperature will in the 40s, assuming you run weather compensation that is your max temperature on a typical 7 Deg day your nearer 35, so that will affect PHE size. Get it wrong you could have a heat pump cycling at lowish flow temperature.

Do the job correctly - replace the dodgy pipes, route them elsewhere to get from A to B.

 

Maxa i32V5 6kW ASHP (heat and cooling)
6.5kW PV
13.5kW GivEnergy AIO Battery.


   
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bontwoody
 bontwoody
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06/05/2025 7:34 pm  

@scalextrix As @JohnMo says though at lower temperatures they need to be bigger so that will probably be the worse performing one in the CH. Also they arent cheap, the Mixergy one is about £300.

House-2 bed partial stone bungalow, 5kW Samsung Gen 6 ASHP (Self install)
6.9 kWp of PV
5kWh DC coupled battery
Blog: https://thegreeningofrosecottage.weebly.com/
Heatpump Stats: http://heatpumpmonitor.org/system/view?id=60


   
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 Scalextrix
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Topic starter 06/05/2025 7:46 pm  

@bontwoody £300 on a £7k ASHP project isn't really a major issue.  The designer will have to size it anyway, my real question is how much efficiency impact it might have, plus any other unexpected issues.


   
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 Scalextrix
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Topic starter 06/05/2025 7:49 pm  

@johnmo not clear the pipes are dodgy, but they could be, nobody can know until after they are pressurized. Right? 

The only routing is the current routing through the concrete slab, not digging that up for an ASHP, if that's he only way then we have to remain on gas.


   
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 Johnmo
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06/05/2025 8:41 pm  

Posted by: @scalextrix
↑

they could be, nobody can know until after they are pressurized. Right? 

Do an air test on them then you will know. Passes test they are fine. If it fails it would have done pretty soon anyway. A pressurised system will only be running at less than 1.5 bar.

Our plate exchanger (working in a hybrid system) doing 36 degs is 460mm tall and 80mm wide and has 40 plates. Bigger would be better.

Maxa i32V5 6kW ASHP (heat and cooling)
6.5kW PV
13.5kW GivEnergy AIO Battery.


   
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 Scalextrix
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Topic starter 06/05/2025 9:36 pm  

Posted by: @johnmo
↑

Our plate exchanger (working in a hybrid system) doing 36 degs is 460mm tall and 80mm wide and has 40 plates. Bigger would be better.

Useful information thanks, we have a cupboard where all that can go, seems pretty small.


   
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