@derek-m & @jamespa

Secondary pump continuously ON

Primary pump continuously ON

The Fact that BOTH pumps are continuously ON Should reduce, or stop, the Motor inrush currents.

Here are the results from the Sharky , this morning 15th Sept 24.

Water Temperature Out

Water Temperature Return

 Water Temperature Delta_T

Water Power

Flow rate

I will get the remainder of the data later ..............

Thanks

However there appears to be something wrong with this data.  Looking eg at the peaks, 7l/min with a deltaT of 3C is a power of 1420W not 200W.  Looking at the midpoints the figures are similarly out.

Its also disappointing if the sharky is not immune to electrically noisy environments, because the presence of motors in the vicinity is inevitable given what it is designed to do.

More importantly, how is your house performing temperature wise and have you modified the WC curve as requested?

Hi Ian,

If everything is open TRV’s  etc and you are getting 7 lpm then with DT 5 your max output is 2.5kw. 
What is your Total house heatloss? 
Is the Samsung circulating pump on secondary configured for variable volume? 

Posted by: @johnmacleod10

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Hi Ian,

If everything is open TRV’s  etc and you are getting 7 lpm then with DT 5 your max output is 2.5kw. 
What is your Total house heatloss? 
Is the Samsung circulating pump on secondary configured for variable volume? 

Very good spot!.  Im certain Ian said its fixed speed, not even connected to the Samsung (controlled on/off by the now shorted thermostat).  Furthermore Ian says the Samsung PWM board is broken.

@iantelescope please can you confirm the answer to Johns question above and also mine:

Posted by: @jamespa

↑

However there appears to be something wrong with this data.  Looking eg at the peaks, 7l/min with a deltaT of 3C is a power of 1420W not 200W.  Looking at the midpoints the figures are similarly out.  Are you able to clarify

Its also disappointing if the sharky is not immune to electrically noisy environments, because the presence of motors in the vicinity is inevitable given what it is designed to do.

More importantly, how is your house performing temperature wise and have you modified the WC curve as requested?

@derek-m &  @jamespa

Improvement amongst the noise!

Here are more  statistics from my heat Pump:

The COP and REAL COP have returned to "normal" but the losses have greatly reduced!

The Loss have greatly reduced!

The Cycle time , unfortunately has reduced markedly!

The Energy use has greatly reduced.

The actual Readings at the various sensors were :

Power greatly improved but VERY Noisy !

Heat Pump Water Output Temperature stable despite my increase in the Water Law Offset to give some heat at night.

The Heat Exchanger Input Water Temperatures , Delta_T is working .

Conclusions:

1) Most of the previous days poor results were correlated with the Legionnaire sterilisation .

2) The COP and REAL COP difference is almost Zero.!

3) The Loss is much improved.

4) The Short Cycling has , however, been much reduced.

Confidence is returning ......................but I still feel cold at night , resulting in the increases in Water Law offset!

I will increase the [+15:25] Water Law /settings to [+15:27] experimentally .

@iantelescope

Unfortunately you appear to have ignored the immediately previous posts which are rather important.  I will repeat (questions to which a reply is needed in bold)

Posted by: @johnmacleod10

↑

Hi Ian,

If everything is open TRV’s  etc and you are getting 7 lpm then with DT 5 your max output is 2.5kw. 
What is your Total house heatloss? 
Is the Samsung circulating pump on secondary configured for variable volume? 

 

Very good spot!.  Im certain Ian said its fixed speed, not even connected to the Samsung (controlled on/off by the now shorted thermostat).  Furthermore Ian says the Samsung PWM board is broken.

@iantelescope please can you confirm the answer to Johns question above and also mine:

Posted by: @jamespa

↑

However there appears to be something wrong with [the sharkey] data.  Looking eg at the peaks of the sharky data you posted, 7l/min with a deltaT of 3C is a power of 1420W not 200W.  Looking at the midpoints the figures are similarly out.  Are you able to clarify

Until you reply to these I am not going to look at any further data, not least because, until your energy measurements are reliable, your cop and loss measurements are also unreliable.

Also please change the water law to +20:25 as originally suggested by @derek-m.  This makes more sense given that your target temperature is 23.  You WILL feel cold at night until you get the water law parameters right, as you are currently relying on manual adjustments, you need to get the WL characteristic right unless you want to get up frequently to adjust it manually during the night.  This will be an iterative process but you need to start at the right point.

Please also measure the heat exchanger deltaT between input (from the heat pump) to output (to the radiators).

@jamespa 

Hi James,

Unfortunately the Heat Pump has taken over my entire life!

Gathering all this data , fixing all these problems , spending yet more money .....agh.

On top of the Heat Pump I have a leaking old Radiator to be replaced at a £500 cost!!

House Heat Loss:

1) The original estimate , by my "installer" was 5.5 Kw to be , initially to be met by a 6.5 kw Warmflow Heat Pump.

2) With the provision of a 5 Kw Samsung  Heat Pump by my "installer",  the House power requirements were retrospectively altered ( forged) to 4.9x kW.

3) An initial assessment by CMS estimated  that my house required 5.6 Kw .

4) The NIC expressed fury at the "retrospective " altering of the Power requirements. NIC Fury did not , however, result in any apology from my "installer" or indeed from the NIC, who washed their hands of the whole affair..**

5) Two other "estimates " from TWO other "companies , Qu--------- ,  later also "STRUCK OFF by the NIC, estimated ~6.5 kw supplied by a Mitsubishi Heat Pump.

** I wonder why I have become so cynical?

@iantelescope 

Posted by: @iantelescope

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Unfortunately the Heat Pump has taken over my entire life!

Gathering all this data , fixing all these problems , spending yet more money .....agh.

I understand and am sympathetic however it doesn't need either to take up all your time or cost any money.  You are currently reporting, worrying about and commenting on lots of data which is not particularly relevant (or even accurate), while not providing the data or doing the things that are necessary to help you efficiently. 

If you would please focus on just doing what is asked, and answering the questions posed, we will do our best to get you to a reasonable position quickly and with minimum effort. 

My approach to this (is very much to get as quickly as possible and with the minimum intervention to a position where you don't need to tweak anything frequently.  I have no doubt that other contributors have a similar approach.  This means that things must be done in a logical order and questions need to be answered at the right time to eliminate early on possible gotchas which could otherwise cause a lot of nugatory work downstream.

It would also help all of us greatly if, before posting, you checked (and responded to) immediately previous posts and, after posting, you checked back say an hour later in case there were any questions arising.  If you cant answer questions please say so but please do not substitute other data for the data requested, it just confuses matters and wastes our time and yours.

In order to move forward efficiently and not to risk lots of nugatory work please answer the following questions in bold to the best of your ability:

From @johnmacleod10

If everything is open TRV’s  etc and you are getting 7 lpm then with DT 5 your max output is 2.5kw. 

Is the circulating pump on secondary (radiator side) configured for variable volume? 

from @jamespa (me)

There is something wrong with the sharkey data.  Looking eg at the peaks of the sharky data you posted, 7l/min with a deltaT of 3C is a power of 1420W not 200W.  Looking at the midpoints the figures are similarly out.  

Are you able to clarify?

from @derek-m (and me)  please change the water law to +20:25 as originally suggested.  This makes more sense than 15:27 given that your target temperature is 23.  Note that you WILL feel cold at night until you get the water law parameters right, as you are currently relying on manual adjustments, you need to get the WL characteristic right unless you want to get up frequently to adjust it manually during the night.  This will be an iterative process but you need to start at the right point.

also from @jamespa (me)

Please also measure the heat exchanger deltaT between input (from the heat pump) to output (to the radiators).

@jamespa 

Measurements using Sharky Water Meter.

My Sharky , as , I suspect most Water meters ,is:

1) Designed for a Landlord to find the Water Energy , kWh , supplied to an end user, usually a tenant .

2) Designed to prevent the tenant interfering with the Energy readings by tampering with the Power Supply to the Water Meter.

3) Fitted with a 10 year life Span battery to prevent the tenant interference.

4) fitted with a European M-Bus interface , specifically designed to provide daily , weekly or monthly measurements of Energy Consumption.

5) Not seemingly, designed, or expected to supply readings every 2 minutes , resulting in 7920 readings each day.

The Sharky anti-interference battery will , within a few years eventually die.

Noise, the Sharky , and the Heat Pump:

When initially connected using the M-Bus interface, my PC. thundered that the Data from the Sharky was corrupted by heavy electrical noise.

I reduced the baud rate from 9600 until a valid, noise free,  signal was received at  a setting of 300 Baud, that is the speed of an ancient teleprinter!

The noise recently experienced , was NOT corrupting the characters transferred from the Sharky , but , rather the actual data registers within the Sharky were corrupted.

The Environment close to the HEAT Pump is , electrically, VERY Noisy!

Motor Pulse Width Modulation problems:

The Pulse Width Modulation Output from the MIM board on the Samsung Does NOT Work , with or without switching the Grundfoss motors to Continuous, ( B1/B6) or Relay Switched mode ( B7/B8) . see  Page 22 of installation manual.

To control the Flow rate I have , and am still,  using a Arduino whose output controls the DIFFERING Flow rates required by the Primary and Secondary Water loops.

The Differing flow rates were used to increase the Delta_T across Both the Primary and Secondary Water circuits as advised by several people including @derek-m .

Sensors and Measurements:

1) Thermo couples are prone to the inevitable drift over time . Not reliable for Delta_T measurements.

2) The oil filled Thermistors used within the Sharky are probably the most accurate sensor. Reliable but dependent upon failing battery . Prone to Noise.

3) The DS18B20 is very accurate , with low drift , high sensitivity and high noise rejection. Prone to intermittent diving to +/- 127 C because of noise!

I will alter the Water Law coordinates as you say...........give me time !

Thank you.  Im not sure this answers all the questions or is completely clear so please clarify or answer:

Sharky

The fact is that the sharky data as you present it is not consistent, this is not a noise problem.   Looking eg at the peaks of the sharky data you posted, 7l/min with a deltaT of 3C is a power of 1420W not 200W which your graph presents.  Looking at the midpoints the figures are similarly out.  This means that all your energy, cop and real cop figures are wrong!

Are you able to clarify the inconsistency or are we forced to ignore the sharky completely and any derived data given that the current figures are inconsistent?

Pumps

Posted by: @iantelescope

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To control the Flow rate I have , and am still,  using a Arduino whose output controls the DIFFERING Flow rates required by the Primary and Secondary Water loops.

The Differing flow rates were used to increase the Delta_T across Both the Primary and Secondary Water circuits as advised by several people including @derek-m .

OK so basically you are using a home grown water pump control system.  What behaviour does it target (eg a specific deltaT between two sensors) and based on what measurement (specify the sensor numbers or similar). 

Heat exchanger

Your comments about temperature sensors are noted but, unless the conclusion to be reached is to distrust all temperature readings (which, together with the Sharky issues invalidates all of your measurements and your water pump control loops):

Please measure and report the heat exchanger deltaT between input (from the heat pump) to output (to the radiators).  I believe you already have sensors in the correct places and if its too small to measure then we dont need to be concerned about it.

Water law

Posted by: @iantelescope

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I will alter the Water Law coordinates as you say...........give me time !

 

Thanks, happy to wait until its convenient, I just wanted confirmation that you would do what is asked so we can be as efficient as possible.

@iantelescope

Could you please confirm the model of Sharky that you have installed.

I'm afraid that I am becoming confused by the multitude of graphs (both requested and not requested) that you keep posting, since it is not clear which sensor is being monitored. As requested previously could you please add the sensor number to each graph.

Have you made any progress collecting data for IAT and OAT? Little progress can be made until you provide this requested data.

Could you please provide graphs for sensor 1, sensor 3 and sensor 7, with adequate labeling, for the previous 24 hour period. Please don't add any further graphs or information.

@jamespa 

Could I ask a question with my Electrical "Cutty Sark"  showing?

Radiator Water Power , with an Run Time of 3 minutes and a Cycle Time of 19 minutes , at a flow rate of 7 liters /minute with a Delta T of 3 C  is:

Water Power =  3 X ( 7/60) X 4.13 x 1000 X (3/19) = 228 Watts .

ian