@grahamf “Things can only get better” (Sorry) Toodles.

Posted by: @grahamf

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@editor your engineer's attitude is truly horrifying.  I suspect he realises that he messed up, but can't bear to face up to it.

I don’t think he does, because he's a very arrogant individual. We still have the occasional run-in on email or social media. The difference is that six years on, I actually know a lot more and can clearly see the “errors” that were brushed off at the time. Yet they still insist everything is fine.

He also has a habit of bad-mouthing me to other installers whenever our system comes up, which is fine. Hopefully, the remedial work we’re doing now will shine a very bright light on his bad practices, the lack of design and the frankly shocking commissioning.

I'm intrigued by this exercise, so far you haven't reported that it was necessary to do anything other than the obvious.  If thats the case then its yet another example of how the industry is messing up.

There is a thread on buildhub (repeated on openenergymonitor) at present, where an electrical engineer is asking for advice.  In summary he has received 3 quotes for the same 7kW Vaillant based system, but 2 out of 3 want to fit a buffer tank and one wants to microzone it.  So thats 2 out of 3 'advising' the wrong thing!  Its scary

@jamespa I find this rather strange.  We have had three gas boiler systems installed.  I also know about my parents' and children's gas boiler systems.  None of them has a buffer tank.

I am wondering why installers have concluded that buffer tanks are necessary for heat pump systems.

@editor I found this Wikipedia article on Noel Burch's Four Stages of Competence model.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_competence

It appears that your installer may be stuck at the "Unconscious Incompetence" stage.

"The individual does not understand or know how to do something and does not necessarily recognize the deficit. They may deny the usefulness of the skill. The individual must recognize their own incompetence, and the value of the new skill, before moving on to the next stage. The length of time an individual spends in this stage depends on the strength of the stimulus to learn."

Posted by: @grahamf

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@jamespa I find this rather strange.  We have had three gas boiler systems installed.  I also know about my parents' and children's gas boiler systems.  None of them has a buffer tank.

I am wondering why installers have concluded that buffer tanks are necessary for heat pump systems.

 

Not a clue quite frankly, other that to disguise problems which otherwise might lead to call outs.  It seems still to be endemic sadly.

@editor  has done 2 podcasts on buffer tanks, on each one only installers who advocate against were prepared to appear, those who advocate for declining.  That says all we need to know in my book.

This scandal risks destroying the uk heat pump industry by underpinning what the oil industry wants us to believe, namely that heat pumps don't work/are inefficient.  It is imho a disaster.

I can't recall a thread on this forum where the complaint is about running cost/performance which didn't involve one of system separation (buffer tank/phe/llh),  massively oversized heat pump or overzoning/over use of external controls (sometimes a combination).  The causes of poor performance are well known and really quite simple, but seemingly not to some installers (or they don't care)

Of course the heating industry has form with installing for its own convenience not for the customer.  Most condensing boilers sold since they became available in 2005 are set up so they don't condense, negating the whole point and increasing running cost by 10%, impairing comfort, but reducing call outs.  The last person to service my gas boiler  before it was removed, even had the cheek to reset my boiler flow temp to max even though I had turned it down!

Posted by: @transparent

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If it weren't for that original installer, none of us would be here on this forum.

🤣 That is so true! 

Posted by: @jamespa

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I'm intrigued by this exercise, so far you haven't reported that it was necessary to do anything other than the obvious.  If thats the case then its yet another example of how the industry is messing up.

There is a thread on buildhub (repeated on openenergymonitor) at present, where an electrical engineer is asking for advice.  In summary he has received 3 quotes for the same 7kW Vaillant based system, but 2 out of 3 want to fit a buffer tank and one wants to microzone it.  So thats 2 out of 3 'advising' the wrong thing!  Its scary

That’s exactly what’s so disconcerting to me. The things being uncovered here so far aren’t exotic fixes or cutting-edge tweaks, they’re just basic, obvious fundamentals that should have been done from day one. 

And yet, as you point out, it keeps happening. When two out of three installers for a straightforward 7kW system are still pushing buffer tanks or micro-zoning, it shows how deeply these bad practices are embedded in the industry. It’s not about marginal gains... it’s about installers getting the basics wrong, again and again, because they haven't bothered to understand what these losses equate to in terms of efficiency and running costs. And they don't care, because they're not the ones having to pay the bills going forward. 

@editor A blessing in dis guy?😉 Toodles.

@editor Once you have completed this exercise and naturally you point out all of the flaws and errors which will no doubt lead to the conclusive "how bad the ASHP industry is" Can you also on balance point out "assuming he will" what a superb rectification and installation your engineer is doing now? I see taking on the point above that this site partly exists as a result of the 1st installers errors, all to often most posts are negative and ultimately helps homeowners and points them in the right direction or at least what to look out for. I see this exercise will both point to the mistakes but also can show it can be done correctly. No doubt you would have had the option of quite a few great installers on here that you are connected to and to help you, I wonder if you can champion the good side in this case once fixed.

I have met some of the best installers and companies over the years and there are some amazing projects completed out there, no need for any to loose faith in the industry but we need to find a better way for customers to find us good companies and hope we have space in our order books 🙂

Cant wait for the results. 

Posted by: @ashp-bobba

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I have met some of the best installers and companies over the years and there are some amazing projects completed out there, no need for any to loose faith in the industry but we need to find a better way for customers to find us good companies and hope we have space in our order books

Posted by: @editor

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That’s exactly what’s so disconcerting to me. The things being uncovered here so far aren’t exotic fixes or cutting-edge tweaks, they’re just basic, obvious fundamentals that should have been done from day one. 

And yet, as you point out, it keeps happening. When two out of three installers for a straightforward 7kW system are still pushing buffer tanks or micro-zoning, it shows how deeply these bad practices are embedded in the industry

As a mere consumer I wholeheartedly agree with both of these.

The question is how?  What, if anything, is being done and by who?   

What, if anything can we do.  Seemingly nothing, and seemingly those who could do something either dont want to act or dont actually understand the problem. 

A week ago two of us wrote (on behalf of RHH) to Which and to a likely candidate to be interested in this stuff in DENZ, offering to help them.  Guess what, no response.  Now it could still be that we will get a response eventually.

If I had my way every consumer who OKs a BUS grant should get a leaflet instructing them to take independent professional advice before proceeding if their installer is proposing system separation, a heat pump > say 8kW for properties up to say 200sq m, or fitting external controls other than those specifically for heat pumps.  Remember that the target is 1.5M heat pumps per year, a handful of 'hero' installers (great though they are)  isnt going to cut it and we cant any material level of avoidable poor installs, but there is no evidence so far as I know that things are getting better.

@ashp-bobba as a member of the industry can you think of a way we could do some more good?  Otherwise the heat pump industry will be responsible for killing the heat pump industry and the UK efforts to decarbonise its heating system.

@jamespa Oh big question but my only thought is to give hands on training and share as much knowledge as we can but this is a very safe but slow method. Unfortunately I cannot think of a scalable sound method and I am not sure there is one for the 1.5m installations needed.

I just wanted to see if we could profile 1 good installation 🙂 Glass 5% full rather than 95% empty (positive approach)