@bart Have given up. Dispute has reached deadlock stage. When, if, it is resolved I should like the opportunity to write about some of the things that ECO4's one-size-fits-all gives contractors a license to do as they please.

So many layers of bureaucracy, it is as if complaints process has been designed to be difficult to negotiate. Waiting for weeks to receive replies. And then told you have to have the same people back to do remedial work, several times in my case. Why would anyone want the same workers back who had thought it acceptable to do a quick shoddy job and then move on to next victims.

Inspections should be quicker and holistic not piecemeal. Someone remarked that ECO4 fell into three distinct categories often carried out by three different sub-contractors - of course inspectors need to be experts in their field. There was no discussion with inspectors, no comments. However, there should be some joined up thinking, some oversight of the completed job,  an opportunity to raise complaints with a person on site, be listened to, perhaps  avoid long drawn out disputes.

I had a long email from one organisation detailing PAS and the requirement for contractors to work to the best industry standards, still wondering which industry.

Beginning to feel as though I am complaining for the sake of it, too fussy, expected too much, when I read of so many satisfied ECO4 customers. But my complaints are real, documented, photographed both before and after "remedial"  work. 

@dwynwen I'm so sorry to hear that you've had such a nightmare experience. One quote I read on a forum by another disenchanted soul was: "Is the push for ASHPs just a State-sponsored scam leaving home-owners with a heating system difficult to understand and operate?"

@notanexpert Whilst I agree that setting up a heat pump to run efficiently is more complicated than a fossil fuel system. Once done it is a case of just leave it be.

As I mentioned earlier there are intelligent control systems that will do the job for you so its nothing to worry about.

I read this morning that we have 3 years to act effectively before the global 1.5C warming is breached. Given the consequences of doing that I think its far from a state scam to try and switch to the only really viable alternative to conventional heating systems.

@bontwoody Please can  I borrow your rose tinted specs re: ECO4?

I also read the climate warning and I have been banging on about it since the 1970s. You are conflating two separate issues. I also read that talks are in progress about opening or expanding two North Sea oil deposits.

Don't think it is a state scam, it is a few rogues, cowboys, who are taking advantage of the scheme with its poor oversight and lack of a straightforward complaints system. 

I assumed  my ECO4 installation would be good, to industry standards, with a tidy finish, never occurred to me that it would be otherwise. Never thought that some things would be thought acceptable, that workers could move on to next job before "snags" were fixed, some safety hazards.

As for ASHP operation - intelligent systems cost and perhaps beyond the means of many recipients of ECO4 grants.

@dwynwen I don't think I am conflating two separate issues.

Havenwise is free for 6 months and £50 per year after, according to its website.

@bontwoody Then I must apologise.

Havenwise sounds too good to be true. Cynical old me is already thinking about the small print.

@dwynwen Thats no problem. I think the business model is lots of small monthly payments which is a good way to get a toehold in what will be a very large market I think.

Posted by: @bontwoody

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@dwynwen Thats no problem. I think the business model is lots of small monthly payments which is a good way to get a toehold in what will be a very large market I think.

Im sure you are right.  Running costs are tiny and just think about the value of the data collected, even if totally anonymous (I don't know what they say about data privacy, but I bet it's better than Facebook or Google).

@notanexpert Thank you for kind thoughts.

As I have just said I do not think it is a state sponsored scam, think it is a real effort to perhaps slow global warming although probably too little too late. Hopefully ASHPS in current iteration are a stop on the way to an improved version but no idea what -there are a lot of clever people in the world.

It is the few rogue installers who are milking the system, who see it as a get rich quick scheme, which leads to bad publicity for ASHPs.  Headlines in local papers about  ECO4 installations "ruining homes" are not uncommon. There are also hard working men and women who take pride in their work and don't make headlines.

I have learned my lesson the hard way, wish I had known about rhhub, so much good advice. Always ask for a contract, specifications etc. and scrutinise. It has all been said and I don't want to patronise.

Posted by: @dwynwen

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@bontwoody Then I must apologise.

Havenwise sounds too good to be true. Cynical old me is already thinking about the small print.

 

 

Basically Havenwise takes remote control of your internet connected ASHP and their clever algorithms to the heavy lift for you. A lot of dev work followed by almost free to run lightweight app probably on a cheap tier on the cloud hence how cheap it is. Whereas Homely requires you to connect a box to the modbus connection on your ASHP, the people at havenwise connect directly to the wifi enabled ASHP over the internet to control the machine. The latest video by @editor has really good info about controls. I am going the homebrew route using Home Assistant to control modbus.

 

Posted by: @dwynwen

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ASHPS in current iteration are a stop on the way to an improved version but no idea what -there are a lot of clever people in the world.

I would suggest the main improvements are:

1. Better controls.  Some ASHP controls are, IMHO, close to being unfit for purpose.  OK for techy people and people who aren't bothered about efficiency, but no good for the average Joe (or Josephine) who is not techy but does care about efficiency.  There are certain things that an average person should be able to do easily and efficiently out of the box (for example adjust the room temperature or set up a night time set back).  Some of the European brands do (more or less) make this possible, many of the Asian brands are absolutely nowhere near.  I suspect this is because European manufacturers have had to deal with weather compensation in boilers for two decades, so have worked out a reasonable UI.

2. Greater useable modulation depth - I suspect this is challenging because compressor technology is pretty mature, but it would go a long way to reducing oversizing problems.  Mitsubishis 8kW R290 machine has two compressors (6+2kW), which may well be the way forward.

We also need a self adjusting LSV that balances radiators.

All the other recurring major issues are down to installers so far as I can see, unnecessary buffers/system separation, unnecessary/poorly selected external controls, poor pipework and oversizing.  If I weren't also a bit cyncial I would say that we can rely on MCS to sort this, but we cant.  The likes of Octopus and BG, who are doing quantities for direct-pay customers, will hopefully play a part, as will competition.  Unfortunately MCS probably reduces competition so I fear slows down the natural elimination of at least most of the rogues.

That said it will never be perfect, nothing is (as I mentioned upthread I got scammed for £5K for an unsatisfactory roof).  Like absolutely anything you buy its best to read up in advance and never trust the salesman.  Hopefully RHH is already making a difference by empowering people, but more people need to join it before they commit rather than when they have a problem.

@dwynwen perhaps similar to the environment it'll take people such as yourself doing the right thing and holding them to account.

It is exhausting and feels personal but for the cowboys its neither.

If you're seriously lost as to next steps I'd recommend calling the DRO. Samantha was great.

If you're going through hell, keep going