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The pipe we'd paid £780 plus VAT for (factory-insulated, purpose-built heat loss pipe) had been sawn and cable-tied back together in the ground. No proper coupling. No sealing.
What material was the pipe made from? Was it a metal or a plastic?
Was it just the insulation which was sawn through, or the pipe itself?
the monitoring argument only works if homeowners know what they're monitoring for, and most don't.
If this had been a sewer pipe below ground, the Building Control Officer would normally request that
the trench is dug to a depth which he stipulates (usually 500mm min for a 110mm pipe), and with a minimum fall of 1 in 40, which is 1½°
the bottom is filled to a depth of 50mm with pea-gravel to support the pipe and prevent stones puncturing it; pea-gravel is what you get from a 10mm sieve
the pipe is laid in place and the fall checked with a spirit level
the sides of the pipe are packed with pea-gravel, leaving the top of the pipe clearly visible
The pipe must then be inspected by the surveyor, who will check the total depth of gravel and the fall-angle.
If it passes, the pipe is then covered by pea-gravel to at least 50mm above.
That top layer is covered with porous fabric – the same stuff used to prevent weeds growing in a gravel path. That prevents soil/dust falling into the pea-gravel surrounding the pipe.
The trench is then back-filled with the appropriate material, depending on what the finished ground is to be.
The exception to that is where the surface layer is to be a driveway over which a car must pass. In that case the fabric layer is first covered with run of load-bearing paving slabs which are supported by ground outside of the trench. The concrete slabs are effectively placing the pipe within an underground tunnel.
The paving slabs are then covered with 100mm (min depth) of 803 Aggregate. That's the same stuff which is normally used as a sub-base for driveways.
That's standard practice in the construction industry.
It would be an excellent starting point from which they can create a similar rule-set for heating pipes.
The issue of external pipe insulation, whether above or below ground was well known by the Department of Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (BEIS) before heat-pump installation grants were devised.
BEIS spent £14m on a Trial in which three areas, each of 250 homes, were selected to take part in a free Heat Pump installation called The Electrification of Heat. The Programme Manager was Alex Hobley, and the site data was collated by the Energy Catapult, who wrote a Report for the Secretary of State. That was Rt Hon Alok Sharma MP until Jan'21, and then The Rt Hon Kwasi Kwarteng MP to Sept'22. The energy side of BEIS became DESNZ in Feb'23.
The Energy Catapult Final Report was further curated in order to identify the wide range of problems which occurred. You are asked to register in order to download that PDF, but it's worthwhile doing so.
Deficiencies with MCS and their 'standards' are stated. What isn't fully reported is the input from ASHP manufacturers who were aghast at the shockingly poor level of work from the preferred Professional Installers who BEIS had 'vetted'. The manufacturers were so concerned that they were sending their own engineers to trial sites to re-pipe and rewire systems. BEIS didn't pay for any of that corrective work, even on sites where the entire installation was ripped out and started again from scratch.
Despite the clear warnings, and before the Final Report was published in Dec'22, BEIS went ahead with launching the Boiler Upgrade Scheme in May'22. Thus the BUS started without the regulatory controls being revised and enforced. So what was the point of throwing £14m at the 'Trial'?
This post was modified 4 days ago 2 times by Transparent
Despite the clear warnings, and before the Final Report was published in Dec'22, BEIS went ahead with launching the Boiler Upgrade Scheme in May'22. Thus the BUS started without the regulatory controls being revised and enforced. So what was the point of throwing £14m at the 'Trial'?
The real question is, was there ever a committed intent to regulate properly or was the assumption that the free market would sort it out. Put simply is it incompetence or design. MCS was spun out of government and privatised in 2018 after all, there was a reason for that decision!
The nesta survey in 2023 showed that dissatisfaction with heat pumps was prwtty similar to dissatisfaction with boilers, about 20% in both cases. To me this points to an endemic industry problem which regulation alone won't fix. I'm not saying that the regulation shouldn't be better, it should. But imho we have to also simplify the install and educate the customer.
This post was modified 4 days ago 3 times by JamesPa
4kW peak of solar PV since 2011; EV and a 1930s house which has been partially renovated to improve its efficiency. 7kW Vaillant heat pump.
The real question is, was there ever a committed intent to regulate properly or was the assumption that the free market would sort it out. Put simply is it incompetence or design.
The Electrification of Heat initiative is still live at DESNZ, but now named Heat Innovation.
I don't think you'd get a direct answer to "Did you launch the BUS as it is by incompetence or design?" But they could be asked to respond to the comments from the Construction Industry above.
This post was modified 4 days ago 2 times by Transparent
I don't think you'd get a direct answer to "Did you launch the BUS as it is by incompetence or design?"
Indeed, the only people that might answer that are departed civil servants who will recall what instructions they were given, but they will also be partisan!
4kW peak of solar PV since 2011; EV and a 1930s house which has been partially renovated to improve its efficiency. 7kW Vaillant heat pump.
The pipe we'd paid £780 plus VAT for (factory-insulated, purpose-built heat loss pipe) had been sawn and cable-tied back together in the ground. No proper coupling. No sealing.
What material was the pipe made from? Was it a metal or a plastic?
Was it just the insulation which was sawn through, or the pipe itself?
The initial pipes running to/through the thick/bulky heat loss pipe were copper, but changed to plastic for the main, long 25m run. Is that what you meant?
As for the insulation, it was the entire heat loss insulation pipe that was cut through as shown below and then cable tied.
Yes. I was wondering if there might've been a way to detect that the pipe had been cut using conductivity, rather than digging it up.
I've previously been sent photos from other sites which had longish outdoor pipe-runs.
There was one which used a pre-insulated pipe pair, Rauthermex-duo:
There's a range of different bores available.
Even so, the majority of the price you paid must've been for labour in digging the trench and back-filling. The pipe itself would be nothing like the £750 you were charged.
I also don't like the look of the double 90° copper elbows in your photo.
If they were going to make that section from copper anyway, then the installers could've used a pipe-bending jig to fabricate smooth bends.
Yes. I was wondering if there might've been a way to detect that the pipe had been cut using conductivity, rather than digging it up.
I've previously been sent photos from other sites which had longish outdoor pipe-runs.
There was one which used a pre-insulated pipe pair, Rauthermex-duo:
There's a range of different bores available.
Even so, the majority of the price you paid must've been for labour in digging the trench and back-filling. The pipe itself would be nothing like the £750 you were charged.
I also don't like the look of the double 90° copper elbows in your photo.
If they were going to make that section from copper anyway, then the installers could've used a pipe-bending jig to fabricate smooth bends.
Absolutely agree. The practical issue I suspect is that that Rauthermax stuff is very expensive and also has a min bend radius of about 1m - horrid to say the least.
Its whats needed (unless you are going to make something up yourself which god forbid installers from doing!), but there are severe disincentives to using it! There are also detailing considerations either end which your average person probably wont bother with.
4kW peak of solar PV since 2011; EV and a 1930s house which has been partially renovated to improve its efficiency. 7kW Vaillant heat pump.
Even so, the majority of the price you paid must've been for labour in digging the trench and back-filling. The pipe itself would be nothing like the £750 you were charged.
Funny you should mention labour... I dug the trench myself. Younger, more optimistic, blissfully unaware of what would eventually be buried in it. The crew handled the backfill, which in hindsight was the only part of the job that required absolutely no skill whatsoever.
The pipe was actually £780 plus VAT. Factory-insulated, purpose-built and apparently destined to be sawn apart and cable-tied back together in the ground like a Blue Peter project. Tremendous value.
Hysterically, on my invoice it's the low lost pipe. Indeed it is.
Oh, and I was going through the invoice, there's £500 for MCS certification and commissioning. For a system that was commissioned on a fixed flow temperature of 45 degrees with weather compensation switched off... essentially a system that was never properly commissioned and certified by a scheme that offered us no meaningful recourse. Genuinely one of the more expensive pieces of paper I've ever owned.
The pipe was actually £780 plus VAT. Factory-insulated, purpose-built and apparently destined to be sawn apart and cable-tied back together in the ground like a Blue Peter project. Tremendous value.
Like I say above this stuff has a min bend radius around 1m. So the sort of thing is (presumably) horrible to deal with in one piece that will inevitably have awkward bends both ends.
Problem easily solved by sawing it in half so you have two pieces, and 'joining' in the middle.
This is exactly how construction works in my experience if not supervised (which unfortunately can mean supervised by the customer). Seriously shocking I know!
This post was modified 4 days ago 4 times by JamesPa
4kW peak of solar PV since 2011; EV and a 1930s house which has been partially renovated to improve its efficiency. 7kW Vaillant heat pump.
Problem easily solved by sawing it in half so you have two pieces, and 'joining' in the middle.
From what Richard explained to me, they should have purchased the correct coupling that would have allowed them to do this without any butchery, but they never bothered because I suspect they didn't have a clue what they were doing.
Problem easily solved by sawing it in half so you have two pieces, and 'joining' in the middle.
From what Richard explained to me, they should have purchased the correct coupling that would have allowed them to do this without any butchery, but they never bothered because I suspect they didn't have a clue what they were doing.
Even if they (well you in reality) had purchased the correct coupling, what do you think is the probability that they would have used it correctly?
You may have gathered that my opinion of the construction industry is rather low. Actually its notthat low, I have encountered some absolutely great people in the industry, a real joy to work with. Its just that the poor ones can be poor in almost every respect it seems!
