Posted by: @jamespa

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Whatever the reason it seems clear that useful CPD is sadly lacking otherwise the same mistakes wouldn't be made repeatedly.  

The biggest issue is who is supposed to provide and administer the CPD. Even the Heat Geek training, that I've nearly finished, is just a glammed up version of the Domestic Heating Design Guide & BPEC Heating Design. Lots and lots and lots of technical theory.

@editor When do “Mars Heat Pump Installation and Service’ start operations then?😉 Toodles.

3 Bed Semi Detached West Midlands, all quotes include the BUS grant.

22mm main pipework
15mm rad pipe work

Radiators are old and likely need replacing,

EDF:

£5,400
System design for 50°C flow temperature
DAIKIN LOW TEMP EDLA 4KW HEAT PUMP
180L PRE PLUMBED R32 SLIMLINE CYLINDER
6 Radiator Changes

Octopus Cosy:

£2800 for the heat pump install
£1000 for new cylinder
No radiator changes?

Heat Geek Zero Disrupt:

£2,650 + £250 'design consultation' which may push price up after.
Vaillant aroTHERM plus 5kW
New 150L cylinder
1 radiator upgraded

Local Company:
£16000
Other local companies didn't respond to the job / were not interested. I contacted 10 others.

boxt wont quote as I haven't got an EPC yet.

I'm not sure about these quotes as they are all (implied) designing for 50 degree degree flow temperatures? Can anyone give me some advice

After calling octopus they suggested that it would cost £150 per radiator change, so total quote would be ~£4500 if I paid for a survey?

@stevettweed, welcome to the forums. Those quotes are all over the place, which isn’t unusual, but it does make it hard for a homeowner to make sense of what’s actually being offered.

If the rads are old, tired and undersized, any company designing the system to run at 50C flow temp without upgrading them is basically banking on the heat pump running hotter than ideal. This has been my biggest issue with zero disrupt because that usually means lower efficiency and higher running costs. It’s not automatically wrong as others will point out, but it does need to be justified by a proper room-by-room heat loss calculation, not guesswork or a sales template.

EDF look the most “complete” on paper because at least they’ve included six radiator upgrades and a cylinder that’s appropriate. £5.4k after BUS for a Daikin 4kW with emitter changes isn’t too bad a deal. The big question is: did they actually do the heat loss properly, and does 4kW genuinely meet your peak demand? Don’t assume… ask for the calc.

Octopus Cosy is cheap, but the “no radiator changes” bit is the red flag for me. Unless your existing rads are already generously sized, a Cosy install tends to run hot to meet demand.

Heat Geek Zero Disrupt is interesting because the Vaillant 5kW is a solid bit of kit, but again only one radiator change? Also be aware that their £250 design consultation often uncovers quite a few additional emitter changes, and the cost rises from there. Nothing wrong with that, it just means the initial price is rarely the final price with Heat Geek.

The £16k local quote is pretty typical of a small installer who actually goes full-fat on design and emitters, but without seeing what they’ve specced it’s impossible to know whether it’s overpriced or just thorough. It does seem steep though when looking at the other quotes.

Your next step should be to ask every company for the same two things: the room-by-room heat loss calculations and the radiator schedule showing exactly what they think each room needs at the design flow temperature. That’s the only way to compare like-for-like. If they can’t provide that or refuse to share it, that tells you everything you need to know.

Right now, nothing jumps out as “clearly the one”, but EDF feel the closest to a proper design.

Happy to look at the heat loss docs if you want to post them.

@stevettweed 

Try British Gas. For me they were by far the most thorough, professional and flexible company ( even compared to Heat Geek).

They'll also happily fit a Valiant HP if you meet the location requirements for R290.

They designed for 42.5c flow @-2 and were more than happy to price match Octopus who were proposing a 50c design, which meant I had substantially increased radiator sizes that will almost certainly allow me to run at 30-35c in most months, probably no more than 35-40c during the coldest weeks.

They listed every piece of equipment to be installed, a complete breakdown including a full power flush, all included and provided a huge document with all the inputs into the heat loss survey, which Octopus refused to give me.

They've also arranged to get our incoming supply upgraded to 100A including replacing the cutout.

Although our install is booked for next year, I have every confidence they'll do a great job.

@editor Thanks for your detailed reply and responding to my email about recommended local installers which where weren't any unfortunately.
My main frustration with the quotation process is that Octopus and Heak Geek won't give a full quote unless a deposit is paid for them to do a full system design in person.

Heat geek's automated system quoted £4,300 for an additional 5 radiator changes, that doesn't include the £250 system design which other installers will not reuse and any potential adjustments to the quote.

"The big question is: did they actually do the heat loss properly, and does 4kW genuinely meet your peak demand?"

The heat loss calculation is done purely from the floor plan and no in person visit (without paying £500).
EDF has sent me an exploding quote which gives me ~3 days to commit or the price will increase by an additional £1000 which feel right.
EDF have also designed the system for 50C flow temp at -3C, I'm not sure how that translates to real world usage - but this would involve replacing every radiator so I would hope they could design it for a lower temp.

I'm going to get my last quote from Aira and they're sending an engineer to calculate the heat loss of the house which should be interesting.

@bash Did their automated quote come close to the final price? Mine seems to be above average.

@stevettweed 

When I started my journey with BG in October they didn't give me an online quote, perhaps that is a new thing.

After the survey (on the day), the engineer offered me a design choice and I asked for a lower design temperature for maximum efficiency.

The engineer then sat with me for another hour to design the system and produce an exact price.

This entailed replacing every radiator and even adding in another new one. All Stelrad classic compacts.

The best bit when I mentioned our Octopus quote is they happily matched it and knocked a further £3400 off.

Our final price after the grant for a Daikin HP, a 200l cylinder, volumiser and 12 radiators (mostly type 22s and some type 21s) is just over £3000.

They gave me a choice of 4 HPs (Vaillant, Bosch, Samsung and Daikin), although I couldn't have the Valiant due to where I wanted it located.

BG didn't charge me a survey fee, so I'd get them round as the final price is unlikely to be the online quote, depending on your design choice.

I also felt comfort in that I know BG are going nowhere, so preferred them to the smaller Heat Geek installers (who were the next best company I dealt with), even though they have a good reputation.

Posted by: @stevettweed

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My main frustration with the quotation process is that Octopus and Heak Geek won't give a full quote unless a deposit is paid for them to do a full system design in person.

Unless it's changed in the last few months, Octopus' survey cost is a fully refundable deposit, and they'll do the EPC too as part of that.

I used them for my first survey, having checked this point with them several times, and subsequently got the EPC & a detailed design and radiator schedule, which they subsequently allowed me to share with other parties. 

I subsequently got the deposit refunded from them too, as their proposal was ultimately one that wasn't the right solution for us.

Also, I used an expired EPC number on Boxt's quotation system and it accepted this and proceeded to provide a quote.  The main issue with Boxt is that to progress any further from their they want full payment up front (on a refundable basis, but still a huge outlay pre-survey).

@stevettweed, your case is actually really interesting because it’s very similar to something I’m in the middle of writing an article about. What we’re seeing right now is the UK heat pump market splitting into two completely different universes that are pulling in opposite directions.

On one side you’ve got the big operators like Octopus, Heat Geek Zero Disrupt and EDF (with Turbo) with Aira and British Gas sitting somewhere in the middle. Their entire model is built around scale: standardisation, modular processes, tight installation windows and shaving down labour hours. Everything is geared towards driving prices down as far as possible.

On the other side you’ve got the top-tier small SMB installers, the ones who do highly bespoke, full-fat design work, spend hours on heat loss, obsess over emitters, pipe runs, controls and commissioning. Their prices are going the other direction. It’s not uncommon for homeowners to email me asking whether they’re mad for considering a £10k all-in install (after BUS) from Octopus, only to then receive a £20k+ quote from a respected local firm and someone that's on our recommended list. And if you live outside that installer’s natural catchment, the price goes up again because travel time kills their margin.

Both models have pros and cons, but you can absolutely see why a lot of homeowners gravitate toward the big players. When the gap between £5k and £20k exists for the “same” headline install, it’s impossible not to.

That said, your frustration is completely fair, and you’re experiencing exactly what hundreds of other homeowners are going through: the design process is becoming paywalled.

Octopus and Heat Geek refusing to do a full design until you pay a deposit or fee is now standard. Their business model relies on volume, which means they can’t afford to send engineers out for free design visits. But the downside is exactly what you’re seeing... you get a price based on assumptions, and only after paying do you find out what the system really needs.

Heat Geek’s automated £4,300 for five radiators is very typical. Add the £250 design consultation, plus whatever their engineer uncovers in person, and their initial quote is almost never the final price. Not necessarily a bad thing, but you need absolute clarity on the final number.

On EDF, the 3-day countdown on the quote is… let’s call it “enthusiastically salesy.” If a price changes by £1,000 after three days, it was never a real price to begin with. That's a bit sketchy and I will raise that with the head of EDF. Please can you email me the quote?

EDF designing the system at 50C flow at -3C is also telling. That usually means they want to avoid swapping more radiators and this seems to be the direction the industry is moving in, which I don't fully agree with.

Your Aira appointment will be interesting, because out of the big four, they’re the only ones who routinely send someone out for a proper heat loss as part of the pre-quote stage (that's what I've been told). Whether that translates into a better design is another question, but the data will at least give you something concrete to compare. 

But right now, here’s your biggest challenge: you’re being asked to choose between quotes that aren’t actually comparable. Until you have room-by-room heat loss calculations, no one can say whether a 4kW Daikin, 5kW Vaillant or 7kW anything is appropriate.

Let us know what Aira say.

While you're at it, I've heard some good things about OVO's heat pump installation service where you'll be able to avail of their heat pump tariff. Maybe get a quote from them and we can use your collective findings to see who and what stands out. You can get a quote from OVO here.

Posted by: @editor

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Your Aira appointment will be interesting, because out of the big four, they’re the only ones who routinely send someone out for a proper heat loss as part of the pre-quote stage (that's what I've been told). Whether that translates into a better design is another question, but the data will at least give you something concrete to compare. 

The initial Aira appointment, certainly in my case when I booked it, is advised as a consultation, taking around an hour, and not a full heat loss survey, which are generally advised as requiring 3-4 hours when booked with Octopus, etc.  I don't know whether a subsequent full survey is carried out, as we didn't progress things with Aira, but they were very careful to point this out on the phone when I spoke with them to make the initial booking during my quotation process.