@jamespa was it my system, house , setup you would like more info about?

Posted by: @tworivers

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@jamespa was it my system, house , setup you would like more info about?

I thought I read that you had swapped out for a boiler.  If I'm wrong then yes otherwise no on the grounds I can't now help you avoid going through this pain.

Posted by: @ashp-bobba

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All systems should be able to meet the required design temperature and a deg above if you choose in my opinion, this way it just a matter of control and settings. 

I do wonder how many of the 'failed' systems that are reported here could be made to work, at least tolerably, with changes to a couple of settings and how they are operated, but without hardware changes. I suspect it's a fair proportion.  Im not suggesting that these would achieve perfection of course, but I suspect significant improvements are possible in a fair number of cases without changing hardware.

@jamespa We repair or redesign around 1 or 2 a month, we have just started 2 this week, the 2 I mention are brand new nearly finished self builds due to be flipped as an investment, the developer had a moment during the installations and realised some things were not right with the works and design, had a sit down with the installer and for some reason they parted with a 80% installation finish, as these 2 installations were Ecodan ASHP the developer contacted the manufacturer and got advised we may be able to help. When I attended the meeting I as well as running through what we thought of the installation by others, I asked if he had contacted any other companies, he said yes 6 in total before us and no one wants to touch it though, he could not believe it when I said well we will and I will clear it with the manufacturer that we can warrant them after commissioning with Mitsubishi as it is new kit and in mint condition, these installations will have the following changes:

Full heat-loss and design paper work as none was done 1st time around

S plan tapped on the back of the Y plan removed

3 Pumps removed from each system on each house

G3 modifications

Full centre wiring and control changes for UFH on multiple zones (75% open zone flow)

Incorrect polly pipe under ground pipework changed to correct MLCP sizes with 100mm insulated 

Correct 4 core comms cabling from ASHP to cylinder 

Correct flexi fitted 

New vibration mounts 

Full pressure test and flush 

Full commissioning 

I think it is possible fix every single wrong installation, it just costs an amount of money, ultimately its a true statement because if it is a very bad installation we would could just replace the whole system, now weather its worth the costs is another question and subject to what needs doing no doubt, sadly we have actually had to go as far and replace everything once for someone in 2023, we did our best to do it as close to cost as we could as I felt so bad for the poor home owner, this was a Big energy company install at 18K in 2021 subbed to an SME that went out of business less than 2 years later in 2023 and no recourse when it did not work, the system was costing something like £2,300 per year to run and very badly short cycling. This system was under RHI and they were as good as gold because having the system removed was against the rules and he would loose his payments, after a couple of conversations with the RHI and proof we installed a better system for him, also now that he now had the most expensive 3 bed detached system on the planet "as he paid for it twice" they agreed to keep the payments going under the original terms even though the scheme had ended. Of course he was not entitled to the BUS as he already had a renewable heating system. Again no one was willing to even take a look at his issues due to fear and warranty claims so he was looking around for about a year for help until he came across us. Our agreement with this client was that we would do everything at costs and he would promote us where he could, I am pleased to say we have since had 3 leads and 2 installations as a result of this clients recommending us so in the end a good outcome for all.

The sad thing in all of this and as I am sure many here will agree, is that you should never have to pay twice or even pay 18K for an installation like that, if we were to price that job in 2025 it would have been £11,300 I estimated that had we done it in 2021 it would be more like £9,900 so I think he over paid by 8K.

We will continue our best at costs to help fix 1 per month in Kent as a part of giving back and just to show that its not all bad in heat pump world. The reason we only do 1 is because we genuinely try our best to make no money out of it as the good will and recommendations pay in dividends. That said we did 3 in September and now have 2 in October so its fair to say its getting out of hand 🙂

Soon we are looking to partner up with a leading Kent college and I am hoping that when we need to take these experienced but in ASHP training engineers out for an experience week I am going to take them to these kinds of jobs and see if we can do them for below costs as the leaners will be attending for free and the experience, I can offer my time for what I want so free and there is not a better place to start a learner than this is how not to do it and the end result is the correct way. Lets see what happens.

Posted by: @ashp-bobba

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Soon we are looking to partner up with a leading Kent college and I am hoping that when we need to take these experienced but in ASHP training engineers out for an experience week I am going to take them to these kinds of jobs

That's a brilliant idea.

The developer story sounds like a nightmare TBH.  That said I'm not surprised, I was the client a couple of years ago for a small community centre redevelopment (perhaps 150sq m) - two rooms and a kitchen.  We specified A2W or A2A heat pump at the designers choice, thinking most probably A2A.   

The "M&E consultant" employed by the architect came up with an incredibly complex system costing 3 times the (quite generous) budget, that quite probably wouldn't have worked and was obviously well oversize.  When I questioned it I just got BS.  Fortunately the firm doing the actual building had a design arm, offered to take over the electrical design, and came up with a sensible proposal for a sensible cost that they could actually explain. 

The worrying thing is that the m&e consultant was employed as, and purported to be, the 'expert'.  Clearly he simply hadn't got a scooby.  There do appear to be chancers around who pretend (maybe even think) that they know what they are doing but clearly don't.

@jamespa Oh, I know some that are good and some not so.

I am excited about this association and I am hoping it will work, it would be my pleasure to give back and at the same time fix some stuff for super low cost or even free. I am a bit idealistic though and I don't doubt it will rely on good will all round and a desire to learn.