Posted by: @toodles

↑

I also wonder why there is so much range anxiety for EV batteries now, after all, I think that a smaller battery could still outrun the average driver’s bladder constitution / safe driving duration and would result in a lighter vehicle and longer tyre life - just a muse on my behalf! Regards, Toodles.

I agree. I think a lot of it comes down to people's resistance to change, and an expectation of an experience similar to what they had before with an ICE vehicle. The notion that they cannot just pull into a service station and fill up instantly adds to this. Providing there is a free charger available, I see nothing wrong with the notion of plugging in for 20mins whilst one stretches their legs and uses the facilities. We should all be taking regular breaks when driving longer distances.

Developments in rapid charging will certainly help as it reduces the inconvenience factor if you can usefully top up in 15mins as opposed to 1h, and should free up charging slots if people are not having to stay plugged in for longer periods of time.

One of the biggest obstacles to EV take up I see is properties where a home charger is not practical so the user is restricted to more expensive commercial charging, negating much of the cost benefits of going electric. If I were a renter, I'm not sure I'd want an electric vehicle either. Would my landlord be willing to install a charger, and what happens when I have to move (all factors outside of my control)

I agree that range anxiety goes away after a few months with an EV, and I am now OK with running the SoC down below 10% on longer trips.

But it's not quite as simple as "take a break every few hours and recharge for 20 mins" because the charger has to be where you want it to be and you need a nearby way to usefully spend that 20 minutes.

As a real life example, over the last weekend we travelled from Hertford to Wroxham in Norfolk and then to Cromer and then to King's Lynn, with various events at each stop.  Neither Wroxham nor Cromer had convenient chargers and I didn't think I could make it to Kings Lynn as we were down to 15%.

So stopped at Fakenham for a top up at Morrisons 50kW charger for 15 mins.  Interestingly Morrisons have done a deal with mfg who had built a super fast hub in the car park - 8x 350kW chargers but they weren't open yet!

On to King's Lynn where we stayed at the Premier Inn and there was a FastNed hub next door.  But I had to sit in the car for 35 mins in the dark while it went from 9% to 85%.  Enough to get to 2 events and then back home the next day with 25% remaining.

Perfectly satisfactory overall but we did end up doing the 2 top-ups where there was nothing else to do but wait.

Posted by: @old_scientist

↑

One of the biggest obstacles to EV take up I see is properties where a home charger is not practical so the user is restricted to more expensive commercial charging, negating much of the cost benefits of going electric. If I were a renter...

The problem is bigger than rented properties, it applies to any property without off street parking adjacent to the house.   It's not just a cost issue it's also a matter of convenience.  If you can't charge overnight and need to get to work in the morning what do you do?  

The cost disparity is enormous.  I pay 6.5 p/kWh to charge my EV, one tenth of many commercial rates.

This needs fixing by regulation imhp, forcing councils to allow cross pavement conduits, forcing landlords to permit EV charger installation and forcing builders to make provision for EVs for any property which does not have off street parking. 

If one is embarking on a long journey in an EV, there are some obvious practicalities one has to face.

Firstly, many cars have a practical range of around 200 miles (leaving a bit of leeway so you're not attempting to drive from absolutely full to completely flat). That means most long-range journeys will probably need at least one stop. As @toodles points out, personal comfort and simple safety dictate those self same journeys should involve at least one break for the driver's sake and that's likely for many to be at motorway services or somewhere near a motorway junction. Finding a charger is not as much of a problem as one might think now there are several very good apps for finding local chargers. Finding a charger that's free is a little more challenging but perfectly doable.

Recharging an EV on a longer journey does need one to find a DC charger capable of 50kWh or more; an AC charger at 7kWh or even 22kWh is just not going to cut it. That said, recharging the car with 50kWh or more will take around the same time as is needed to get some lunch and a hot drink, use the loo and stretch one's legs - precisely what an ICE car driver should be doing at that kind of interval anyway.

All that suggests that @toodles' comment about range anxiety being unfounded is true. However....

If (let's assume it's winter and my solar panels aren't confusing the issue) I have to charge my car at home using grid leccy, I'd be paying about 16p/kWh. If I fill up our second car (diesel) locally then it costs about £1.43/litre. Doing the sums, and accepting my diesel does about 46 mpg, that means my EV returns an equivalent of about 125 mpg. Think of it a different way, that means my EV costs about 5p/mile and my diesel costs about 14p/mile. If, on the other hand, I need to fill up at public charging prices vs diesel at motorway prices things look very different. EV becomes about 28mpg equivalent meaning 27p/mile vs the diesel at 16p/mile.

Ultimately, people don't like being ripped off and having an EV going from about a third of the price per mile of a diesel to more than one and a half times the price per mile is a bitter pill to swallow. Even if you assumed home charging was at normal variable tariff rates the contrast between home charging running costs and public charging ones is ridiculous. As a result, for many doing the sums for whether or not to get an EV, range anxiety is more about avoiding public charging at all costs. As a local runabout, therefore, an EV is perfect - and by local I still mean for me being able to run down to the coast and back with day-out pootling in between from leafy Surrey and still have plenty of charge upon my return that the car's still perfectly useable for evening taxiing duties. As a longer range vehicle - let's say travelling up to Cheshire or Lancashire - just the journey there and back will be expensive and that's even ignoring the fact I'd probably need to use public chargers for local travel whilst up there.

All things considered, the amount of saving to be had for running an EV via home charging means occasional long journeys, whilst expensive, will still not significantly offset the benefits. However, the extortionate hike on public charging prices means anyone needing to rely on public charging on a regular basis will probably be finding it hard to justify financially the running costs of an EV.

As an aside, for us the break even point is a price per kWh of 43p. There are Tesla charging stations that allow for non-Tesla cars to charge at around this price or cheaper although they are fairly few and far between.

Posted by: @majordennisbloodnok

↑

There are Tesla charging stations that allow for non-Tesla cars to charge at around this price or cheaper although they are fairly few and far between.

Yes - I had my eye on a Tesla charger just N of Norwich at 52p/kWh, but our plans changed and it was no longer on our route.

Coincidentally I had my solar / battery installer back today to amend the wiring to allow a manual switchover to island or off-grid mode in the event of a power outage. (we get a couple a year around here usually only for an hour or so, occasionally longer).

Anyway, it's a couple of years since they installed my GivEnergy + solar system and I asked him how the market was developing.  He said they don't install GE any more as the support for installers has deteriorated.  He also didn't like the MyEnergi Libbi.

He said that a customer had asked them to install a FoxESS a while ago and they had agreed and now that's all they install.  He said that the software was easy and no special installer account was required, making it easier for the owner to manage.  He also liked the modularity of the batteries and also that more than one inverter would work together - unlike GE which has been promising an EMS for at least 2 years and haven't delivered anything for Hybrid inverters yet.

Just passing this on in case anyone is interested - I have no particular knowledge of Fox and others may have different experience.

Posted by: @downfield

↑

Just passing this on in case anyone is interested - I have no particular knowledge of Fox and others may have different experience.

I have/had a basic non-hybrid FoxESS inverter. The software/App is nice enough, but the main downside for me was it's not real time - it uploads data to the cloud in China, and the App is showing a snapshot of that data every 5mins. I prefer something a little more real time (the Tesla App appears to update every 10s or so). Fox do have a web interface you can use though, if you are not an App person or do not have a phone.

Posted by: @downfield

↑

Coincidentally I had my solar / battery installer back today to amend the wiring to allow a manual switchover to island or off-grid mode in the event of a power outage. (we get a couple a year around here usually only for an hour or so, occasionally longer).

Anyway, it's a couple of years since they installed my GivEnergy + solar system and I asked him how the market was developing.  He said they don't install GE any more as the support for installers has deteriorated.  He also didn't like the MyEnergi Libbi.

He said that a customer had asked them to install a FoxESS a while ago and they had agreed and now that's all they install.  He said that the software was easy and no special installer account was required, making it easier for the owner to manage.  He also liked the modularity of the batteries and also that more than one inverter would work together - unlike GE which has been promising an EMS for at least 2 years and haven't delivered anything for Hybrid inverters yet.

Just passing this on in case anyone is interested - I have no particular knowledge of Fox and others may have different experience.

I've heard good things about FoxESS too. I have a work colleague who had that brand of kit installed a couple of years ago and has been very happy with it. The company is a relative newcomer to the market but seems to be doing the right things; one to watch, methinks.

Posted by: @old_scientist

↑

I have/had a basic non-hybrid FoxESS inverter. The software/App is nice enough, but the main downside for me was it's not real time - it uploads data to the cloud in China, and the App is showing a snapshot of that data every 5mins. I prefer something a little more real time (the Tesla App appears to update every 10s or so). Fox do have a web interface you can use though, if you are not an App person or do not have a phone.

That's one of several reasons I wasn't particularly impressed with the default offering for managing my Growatt inverter too, so it's not unique to FoxESS. In addition, the Growatt doesn't have a local web interface either so you're somewhat more limited, hence why I ended up managing it locally via modbus and Home Assistant. Said aforementioned colleague also has Home Assistant (for very different reasons) and showed me there is a FoxESS integration available that would allow for similar local automation to what I've got set up. That would update every 20s.

Not a recommendation but certainly another FYI to go alongside @downfield's.

Posted by: @majordennisbloodnok

↑

Posted by: @old_scientist

↑

I have/had a basic non-hybrid FoxESS inverter. The software/App is nice enough, but the main downside for me was it's not real time - it uploads data to the cloud in China, and the App is showing a snapshot of that data every 5mins. I prefer something a little more real time (the Tesla App appears to update every 10s or so). Fox do have a web interface you can use though, if you are not an App person or do not have a phone.

That's one of several reasons I wasn't particularly impressed with the default offering for managing my Growatt inverter too, so it's not unique to FoxESS. In addition, the Growatt doesn't have a local web interface either so you're somewhat more limited, hence why I ended up managing it locally via modbus and Home Assistant. Said aforementioned colleague also has Home Assistant (for very different reasons) and showed me there is a FoxESS integration available that would allow for similar local automation to what I've got set up. That would update every 20s.

Not a recommendation but certainly another FYI to go alongside @downfield's.

I should clarify that the FoxESS web interface is not local (you are not logging into a web interface on the hardware itself). It is still cloud based so not talking to the equipment directly. The equipment sends data back to the cloud every 5 mins which can then be displayed either in the App or via the website. It's fine for daily overviews, but frustrating if you are trying to monitor things in real time.

Conversely, I can log into my Tesla battery directly and see real time data that refreshes every 3 seconds using the installer App, or data refreshed every ~10 seconds (via Tesla cloud) using the consumer App.