Posted by: @jeff

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Out of curiosity how many forum members are active in "Community Energy Organisations". I am assuming a significantly larger percentage than the general population but perhaps I am mistaken. 

@transparent Is there a national register of all of all of the community energy organisations somewhere that currently exist? 

@transparent do the Community Energy Organisations you are part of have an Internet presence recommending anything or any community buying schemes not related to  plug in solar? 

There is no common denominator which could allow a Community Energy organisation to be defined.

A good few have evolved from the Transition Towns movement. But if you click on the links on their map and investigate further, you won't much in common between them. One Transition Town group might only be interested in allotments, whilst another could have dwindled to just one or two people who write a column for the local newspaper about 'recycling'.

Each Community Energy Group generally coalesces around someone who initiates a 'project'. Typically that would be promoting rooftop solar panels. They might have an arrangement with a local installer, and a grant from their Council.

Community Energy has a more precise definition in the minds of a DNO. They are usually eager to see a project which has distributed electricity generation and sells that power to its members. Most commonly the generation and the consumers must be within the geographical area which is served by a Primary Transformer. Ie they're all on the same 11kV network.

Community Energy schemes are often constrained by there not being enough technically-competent members. You end up with a Committee which has lots of meetings, arranges talks and pushes leaflets through doors. But if there's only one 'retired engineer' type who's expected to fulfill all the installation, maintenance and fault responses, then they will end up being run into the ground by Committee decisions based on poor science and insufficient funds.

Posted by: @transparent

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It's the higher level of risk which causes the electrical trade bodies to sound the alarm.

Testing and discussions have been going on for some time. It was in the Solar Road map published by the government. So this isn't new news for the trade bodies, DNOs, manufactures or retailers. 

But it's unenforceable.

Electricians will always try to work within the IET Regulations because they can otherwise lose their insurance cover and be barred by their trade body.

A member of the public faces no such sanctions for installing Balcony Solar

• which uses a micro-inverter that isn't tested and certified
• plugging into a 13A wall socket on a power-ring supplied by a uni-directional RCBO
• in a house that has inadequate earthing

Who is to know that anything is wrong, unsafe or illegal?

I can buy inverters from China which are almost identical to those sold within Balcony Solar kits supplied in mainland Europe, but which are rated with an output above 800w.

A householder would be very likely to buy such a micro-inverter via Ebay (or other online sales site) because its specification looks 'better'. Why would they hesitate due to doubts of it being G98 compliant?

In the vast majority of cases, the equipment will operate just fine.

Then one day there will be a fatality...

Posted by: @editor

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I have it on semi-good authority that this will also be allowed with the required CU/DB upgrades to RCBOs.

A couple of days ago I received a message from someone wanting to know 'more about electrics'.

They said they understood the basic electrical formulae, but struggled to see the difference between photos of RCDs and RCBOs when posted here on the Forum.

I'm obviously delighted to see that level of interest...
... but I can't see how householders could be expected to check the type of trips in their CU before plugging in a Balcony Kit from Amazon.

Posted by: @jeff

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Posted by: @editor

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Posted by: @jeff

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For example the Ecoflow system includes an optional battery, whether than will be "allowed" in an official solution in a few months time it is not clear.

I have it on semi-good authority that this will also be allowed with the required CU/DB upgrades to RCBOs.

Good to know. 

Will the requirement be to install the RCBO in the CU/DB or will one in the socket be allowed if one is installed already? I suspect this is not sufficient or the correct RCBO. 

https://www.toolstation.com/masterplug-ev-weatherproof-socket/pAF469

I assumed in the CU/DB but this product looks incredibly useful… I’d be interested to get @transparent‘s take on it.

This would be very handy for a product I’d like to check out soon, but it’s not very clear how you wire this? Can it ‘simply’ be used like an extension in that it in itself is plugged in? Not sure if I’ve articulated the question very well.

@transparent 

Sorry but absolutely everything we do in life has risks.  And much of the risk mitigation we build in relies on people following the instructions/not buying rip off products.

So to avoid that risk lets do nothing, then there is no risk!

Of course there might be a fatality associated somehow with plug in solar, as there will if we do nothing about climate change, don't compel everyone immediately to replace any pre 18th edition electrics, use a car, fly, live in a block of flats in Kensington and Chelsea, cross the road, have a baby, make contact with another human, eat, or almost any of the things we all do, not least because life is inherently a sexually transmitted fatal disease.

Everything is about balance of risk not eliminating risk entirely, because you can't.

So, leaving aside the ever present risk of scammers and people who don't follow the instructions, what is the actual additional risk that plugging in a properly designed plug in solar panel incurs that is not anyway present in the same house.  How significant is that risk?  And why is that  more significant in the UK than it is in Germany, enough to justify us taking a different legislative view to Germans?  

Posted by: @editor

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This would be very handy for a product I’d like to check out soon, but it’s not very clear how you wire this? Can it ‘simply’ be used like an extension in that it in itself is plugged in? 

This is a fixed wiring product, not a plug in extension. 

That said you can get extension leads with built in rcds and also plug in RCDs.  These are often used where, for example, you have a fusebox with fuses, or a circuit that has only an mcb, and you want to use a piece of equipment in the garden (eg an electric lawnmower), where there is a higher level of risk than in the house.

It's worth remembering that neither fuses nor mcbs provide any material protection against electric shock, basically all they do is stop the cable setting fire in a fault condition.  Nevertheless many cus or fuseboxes will have only these, because they predate RCDs/Rcbos and there is, other than in restricted circumstances, no requirement to upgrade installations that were compliant at the time they were installed.

Posted by: @editor

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I assumed in the CU/DB but this product looks incredibly useful… I’d be interested to get @transparent‘s take on it.

This would be very handy for a product I’d like to check out soon, but it’s not very clear how you wire this? Can it ‘simply’ be used like an extension in that it in itself is plugged in?

Even if you bought an add-on unit which combines an earth leakage trip and a 13A socket, it doesn't resolve the issue of what's in the CU.

You might still have a 'standard' uni-directional RCBO for each power circuit in the home. If there's a fault with the micro-inverter on a Balcony Solar kit, the trip-solenoid in that RCBO could still be burnt out. You can't prevent that by adding something else on an extension lead elsewhere in the property.

I think @jamespa and I have arrived at the same conclusion.

Once you have Balcony Solar being plugged into 13A sockets by the general public, then it's no longer the case that electrical safety remains in the hands of the IET, NICEIC and their qualified electricians.

That bird has flown.

There will be a very small risk of a properly tested/certified micro-inverter failing in such a way that an existing RCBO no longer provides earth-leakage protection to the household power sockets.

There is a significantly greater risk if the householder buys in an uncertified micro-inverter from an online supplier. I can't see any way that the Secretary of State for ESNZ can overcome that by spending a few months more creating rules and regulations.

OTOH, we on this Forum can do more because we will continue to discuss the technology and inform people of what to beware of.

Domestic electrics are massively undervalued when it comes to safety, and too many people take them for granted. There’s also a real tendency for homeowners to bodge or DIY because it seems robust, but that’s where the risks creep in.

The reality is it’s far more complex than it looks, and I’m only just starting to appreciate that as I learn more. I will try to create more awareness around this as we evolve our own battery set ups because I think the temptation for the simplicity of plug-ins can lead to dramas.

Posted by: @transparent

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I think @jamespa and I have arrived at the same conclusion.

Once you have Balcony Solar being plugged into 13A sockets by the general public, then it's no longer the case that electrical safety remains in the hands of the IET, NICEIC and their qualified electricians.

That bird has flown.

Was it ever fully 'in the hands of the IET, NICEIC and their qualified electricians.'?  Most electrical work is not notifiable, and thus in practice can be done by anybody. 

Posted by: @transparent

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There will be a very small risk of a properly tested/certified micro-inverter failing in such a way that an existing RCBO no longer provides earth-leakage protection to the household power sockets.

Is there any way we can get a handle on that risk?  My guess is that its far less than the risk posed by any one of what must be hundreds of thousands if not millions of old fuse boxes out there, which a householder is under no obligation whatsoever to upgrade.

A common (hypothetical) scenario:

I have an old style CU in the house with MCBs protected with a single RCD protecting multiple rings. I have a radial spur going to the garage with a freezer plugged in. I might want to add plug-in solar in the garage (maybe with panels on the garage roof)

I'm unlikely to want to spend £1000 having the main CU updated to the latest regulations, fully RCBOs with surge protection, but I might be willing to add a decent CU on the end of that radial spur in the garage. Would that add sufficient/better protection than just plugging in to the existing socket in the garage? If so, what should I be looking for (best practice) by way of surge protectors and RCDs/RCBOs etc to put in that new CU? 

We can't stop people doing silly things, but we could maybe put together a practical list of best practice things to try to do / avoid?

Posted by: @old_scientist

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A common (hypothetical) scenario:

I have an old style CU in the house with MCBs protected with a single RCD protecting multiple rings. I have a radial spur going to the garage with a freezer plugged in. I might want to add plug-in solar in the garage (maybe with panels on the garage roof)

I'm unlikely to want to spend £1000 having the main CU updated to the latest regulations, fully RCBOs with surge protection, but I might be willing to add a decent CU on the end of that radial spur in the garage. Would that add sufficient/better protection than just plugging in to the existing socket in the garage? If so, what should I be looking for (best practice) by way of surge protectors and RCDs/RCBOs etc to put in that new CU? 

We can't stop people doing silly things, but we could maybe put together a practical list of best practice things to try to do / avoid?

 

I think that would be useful. 

We can at the very least for example sign post good value certified micro controllers. They don't have to be the cheapest. 

For example the basic ECO Flow system used in Europe and mentioned by the UK government recently is now only £349 including the 800w of solar panels and the micro inverter. This may be one of the approved devices the government will launch with. 

Posted by: @editor

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Posted by: @jeff

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Posted by: @editor

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Posted by: @jeff

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For example the Ecoflow system includes an optional battery, whether than will be "allowed" in an official solution in a few months time it is not clear.

I have it on semi-good authority that this will also be allowed with the required CU/DB upgrades to RCBOs.

Good to know. 

Will the requirement be to install the RCBO in the CU/DB or will one in the socket be allowed if one is installed already? I suspect this is not sufficient or the correct RCBO. 

https://www.toolstation.com/masterplug-ev-weatherproof-socket/pAF469

I assumed in the CU/DB but this product looks incredibly useful… I’d be interested to get @transparent‘s take on it.

This would be very handy for a product I’d like to check out soon, but it’s not very clear how you wire this? Can it ‘simply’ be used like an extension in that it in itself is plugged in? Not sure if I’ve articulated the question very well.

 

It is interesting as it is a RCBO which is unusual for these devices and primarily marketed for EVs although also for gardens generally. Most of these sockets contain other in built protection rather than RCBOs. 

Be interesting to see if another enclosure marketed like this for plug in solar is launched, warts and all obviously vs best practice.

Posted by: @old_scientist

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I'm unlikely to want to spend £1000 having the main CU updated to the latest regulations, fully RCBOs with surge protection, but I might be willing to add a decent CU on the end of that radial spur in the garage. Would that add sufficient/better protection than just plugging in to the existing socket in the garage? If so, what should I be looking for (best practice) by way of surge protectors and RCDs/RCBOs etc to put in that new CU? 

You don't need to have any protection devices whatsoever in order to plug in a Balcony Solar Kit.

The 'problem' is the opposite of what you might suppose.

If you install a Balcony Solar micro-inverter onto a circuit which does have protection offered by a (common) uni-directional RCBO, then there is small risk that the RCBO could be damaged. But you wouldn't know such damage had occurred, and therefore believe the sockets on that ring circuit were still protected for both

• over-current
• earth leakage

There's no problem with you using the existing garage socket for a Plug-In solar kit.