Posted by: @jeff

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I am minded to be glass half full following the announcement. 

Precisely.  The Government can only do what it can do, which is limited by all sorts of things. 

I dont see how there can be any doubt that the current Government is trying to advance the cause of renewables and taking many more tangible actions than we have been accustomed to.  If you support renewables that has to be a good thing.  Of course if you do support renewables you are going to want it all to happen faster, but having been in local government for a while I know that things Governments do take time.  In many cases this is filibustering, but in many cases its just that things do take time! 

It doesn't help that we live in a fairly open democracy, where everyone has to have their say before any decision can be made, and decisions at any level can be challenged by anyone through the courts by launching a Judicial Review.  However far better than than the alternative.

I'm trying to understand how they are able to relax regulations to allow 800W plug-in solar systems?

Firstly there are the electrical regulations. What if one has a really old fuse wire type fuse board from 50 years ago? No surge protection, no RCDs, no RCBOs on those?

Secondly, I'm interested to see how they get this past the DNO's with respect to G98 regulations. I cannot see Bob popping down to Lidl, buying a plugin solar kit and then coming home to complete his G98 notification. Does the DNO now have to assume that every property has a minimum of 800W solar installed? Does that then trigger mass local substation/cabling upgrades to cope with the sudden potential influx of solar? How can the DNO possibly process future G99 applications sensibly without knowing how much export is currently installed (or plugged in) on the local grid?

What happens if Bob decides this is such a good offer that he buys 3 kits to give himself 2400W of plugin solar?

Posted by: @old_scientist

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I'm trying to understand how they are able to relax regulations to allow 800W plug-in solar systems?

Firstly there are the electrical regulations. What if one has a really old fuse wire type fuse board from 50 years ago? No surge protection, no RCDs, no RCBOs on those?

Secondly, I'm interested to see how they get this past the DNO's with respect to G98 regulations. I cannot see Bob popping down to Lidl, buying a plugin solar kit and then coming home to complete his G98 notification. Does the DNO now have to assume that every property has a minimum of 800W solar installed? Does that then trigger mass local substation/cabling upgrades to cope with the sudden potential influx of solar? 

What happens if Bob decides this is such a good offer that he buys 3 kits to give himself 2400W of plugin solar?

 

 

If the Germans can do it then surely we can do it.  Are German safety standards materially worse than ours, I doubt it.  BTW they are sold in Germany by IKEA (doubtless amongst others).

Of course there may be an old fuse box, but the fact is that you aren't obliged to change it and the danger it presents is anyway present. How is 800W upstream, doubtless with lots of built in protection, going to be any more harmful than 6.9kW (ie 30A, typical ring main) downstream with little or no built in protection.  Its not!

Regarding G98 etc I imagine there will be an exemption (which may need to be created) up to perhaps 1kW so notification isn't needed for 1 only. 

If Bob buys 3 and instals them (3 may well require notification, although of course nobody will bother) then its no worse for the DNO than a 3.68kW professionally installed system, which is 'install and notify' - ie no permission needed.

Government has done precisely the right thing.  Cut through the industry protectionist crap and British Exceptionalism and just get on with it, given that other EU countries with a good record of electrical safety have somehow found a way to do so.  

We need more of this approach not less IMHO.  If you are determined its possible to find a reason not to do any particular thing, and if you let that get in the way you end up doing nothing.  There comes a point where you have to break the barrier.

@jamespa I take your points.

WRT to G98 / DNO - maybe you are right and we just need to let people go ahead, and wait for folks to report over-voltage conditions to the DNO when local voltages exceed 253v, and the DNO can investigate and make the necessary upgrades. I trust those with significantly more expertise than I will be making the decisions 😀 

Posted by: @old_scientist

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WRT to G98 / DNO - maybe you are right and we just need to let people go ahead, and wait for folks to report over-voltage conditions to the DNO when local voltages exceed 253v, and the DNO can investigate and make the necessary upgrades. 

I presume thats how undervoltage gets dealt with.  Apparently (according to @transparent) they have almost no monitoring at this level.  I dont know if modern inverters shut down if they detect overvoltage.  Clearly they could and may well do so, or even be required to do so.

I'm not disappointed or upset by today's announcements by the Secretary of State.

I would, of course, have preferred it if DESNZ had underpinned the announcement for Plug-In Solar with actual supporting evidence.
Instead we are left with a vague indication that it will "drive down prices", because we won't be reliant on oil.

https://youtube.com/shorts/xkIJjWagmms?si=LfHtFDZeE439-sfb

We are absolutely right to discuss the technicalities here on the Forum...
... provided we then disseminate that knowledge widely from the local pub to the Local Council 🙂 

Posted by: @jamespa

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I dont know if modern inverters shut down if they detect overvoltage.

Yes. The G98 standards still exist, but I am noticing a more loose interpretation is being implemented by manufacturers.

Let me post here in public, a section of a conversation I had with @editor earlier today:

Up until now the safety of electricity in the home has rested on the need to employ a professional electrician, who has qualifications and insurance through his affiliation to a safety-standards body.

The public are permitted to plug in 'demand appliances' to 13A outlets which enjoy the protection from the trips in the consumer unit.

Hard-wired solar and storage battery inverters are also connected to the consumer unit by a qualified electrician.  It's only the extra-low-voltage battery cells which can be assembled by enthusiasts like me.

For the first time ever, the IET Wiring Regulations are being over-ridden by consumer-installed generation devices.

To facilitate that change, the user-protection must be an integral part of the micro-inverter which comes as part of the kit, rather than being imposed by devices installed professionally in the consumer unit.

But Balcony Solar in particular is intended to be 'cheap' and the market will soon become open to micro-inverter clones which are not tested/certified. There will also be unofficial repair-shops to which you can send a 'broken' micro-inverter. After all, you're unlikely to return it to Lidl or Amazon because you won't know enough about it to confirm that it's the micro-inverter at fault. Nor will you know if that 'fault' has damaged your RCBO of course.

It's the higher level of risk which causes the electrical trade bodies to sound the alarm.

Posted by: @transparent

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But Balcony Solar in particular is intended to be 'cheap' and the market will soon become open to micro-inverter clones which are not tested/certified. There will also be unofficial repair-shops to which you can send a 'broken' micro-inverter. After all, you're unlikely to return it to Lidl or Amazon because you won't know enough about it to confirm that it's the micro-inverter at fault. Nor will you know if that 'fault' has damaged your RCBO of course.

 

It's the higher level of risk which causes the electrical trade bodies to sound the alarm.

Thats fair enough of course.  However if we disallow products (of any type) because somebody might (and probably will) produce unsafe versions that do not meet the required standards, then we would have to disallow a whole slew of products.  And if we disallow operations (of any type) because they might not be done to the required standards (which will probably happen on some occasions), we will never be able to build anything ever again.

There comes a point where you have to take a view.  If regulations exist to ensure safety, and provided there is some way that consumers can know if the regulations have been met, then that has to be sufficient unless there is significant evidence to the contrary.  If we go back to the building example, there are regulations to ensure safety, there is a mechanism by which consumers are supposed to know that they have been met, but still there are dodgy builders who literally kill people by flouting them.  Do we ban building altogether, no of course we dont!

I'm not thinking that Balcony Solar should be disallowed, but that the micro-inverters need to be quality-assured.

Let's look at the economics:

Ikea in Germany are reportedly offering a kit for €450, which equates to £390
That's an 800w micro-inverter with two 450w (peak) solar panels, cabling and some mounting brackets.

I can buy an 800w micro-inverter on AliExpress for just under or just over £100 incl import tax, VAT and carriage to UK.

I can buy a 400w+ solar panel from Midsummer Wholesale for £79 +VAT (say £95), but the carriage costs for just two panels are high because they come on a pallet-delivery.
It would be better for a Community Energy organisation to coordinate purchases.

In neither situation do I enquire about slave labour...
... because we're interested only in costs at the moment.

Or I can already order a complete 800W kit on Ebay UK for £349 which includes carriage.

The Seller is identifiable and based in Telford.
It's marked 'private' (not business), prohibits returns and doesn't provide a VAT number.

Since the DESNZ has stated (today) that they intend making Balcony Solar permissible within a few months, let's assume that these micro-inverters aren't certified, nor tested to de-couple from the grid within the usual G98 specifications.

The profit margins are probably too low to pay for test certification.

Each Seller will ship a few, then close the account and open a new one.
The link I've just provided above won't work for much longer.

By the time the Secretary of State declares such kits may be purchased and installed legally in GB, there will already be thousands connected.

So the big challenge is one of trust.

How can a consumer have confidence in these plug-in micro-inverters to operate reliably and safely? That's probably now impossible to achieve.

The best we can suggest is that they're less likely to create fires in comparison with 'replacement' chargers for e-Bikes and Scooters.

@transparent 

I cant disagree with any of that, however its just the human condition, whatever the circumstance there will be scammers who don't care if they endanger people.  How can anyone have confidence in building after Grenfell, and we have yet to find out what iffy vape liquids are doing to us long term (but I bet its not good!)

Caveat emptor applies as always.  There are some things that I wont ever buy cheaply for this very reason.

Posted by: @transparent

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I'm not thinking that Balcony Solar should be disallowed, but that the micro-inverters need to be quality-assured.

Let's look at the economics:

Ikea in Germany are reportedly offering a kit for €450, which equates to £390
That's an 800w micro-inverter with two 450w (peak) solar panels, cabling and some mounting brackets.

I can buy an 800w micro-inverter on AliExpress for just under or just over £100 incl import tax, VAT and carriage to UK.

I can buy a 400w+ solar panel from Midsummer Wholesale for £79 +VAT (say £95), but the carriage costs for just two panels are high because they come on a pallet-delivery.
It would be better for a Community Energy organisation to coordinate purchases.

In neither situation do I enquire about slave labour...
... because we're interested only in costs at the moment.

 

Or I can already order a complete 800W kit on Ebay UK for £349 which includes carriage.

The Seller is identifiable and based in Telford.
It's marked 'private' (not business), prohibits returns and doesn't provide a VAT number.

 

Since the DESNZ has stated (today) that they intend making Balcony Solar permissible within a few months, let's assume that these micro-inverters aren't certified, nor tested to de-couple from the grid within the usual G98 specifications.

The profit margins are probably too low to pay for test certification.

Each Seller will ship a few, then close the account and open a new one.
The link I've just provided above won't work for much longer.

By the time the Secretary of State declares such kits may be purchased and installed legally in GB, there will already be thousands connected.

 

So the big challenge is one of trust.

How can a consumer have confidence in these plug-in micro-inverters to operate reliably and safely? That's probably now impossible to achieve.

The best we can suggest is that they're less likely to create fires in comparison with 'replacement' chargers for e-Bikes and Scooters.

Out of curiosity how many forum members are active in "Community Energy Organisations". I am assuming a significantly larger percentage than the general population but perhaps I am mistaken. 

@transparent Is there a national register of all of all of the community energy organisations somewhere that currently exist? 

@transparent do the Community Energy Organisations you are part of have an Internet presence recommending anything or any community buying schemes not related to  plug in solar? 

Not surprising there is more talk about breaking the link between gas and wholesale electricity pricing while gas prices have spiked. 

https://news.sky.com/story/ed-miliband-tells-mps-how-he-hopes-to-cut-household-energy-bills-amid-calls-for-more-north-sea-drilling-13523989

This article has more than many in terms of detail but it is still difficult to assess what it would actually mean for bills during the transition to primarily non fossil fuel electricity generation. 

https://www.carbonbrief.org/qa-why-does-gas-set-the-price-of-electricity-and-is-there-an-alternative/

Interesting they say the impact on actual bills is increaingly subdued over time anyway due to fixed price CfD contracts which may cover 50% of electricity by 2030, PPA contracts which are not linked to the wholesale price of electricity and the retirement of old inefficient gas turbines. 

A good way of presenting would be simply showing the impact on the Nesta breakdown of the price cap, for example where £232 is highlighted as the annual cost of fuel (includes solar, wind, gas etc but not CfD subsidy or the Capability market cost) 

https://www.nesta.org.uk/report/whats-in-an-energy-bill/full/

If we broke the link in a particular way how much of this £232 do they think will be reduced for example. Obviously the Nesta figures will change later in the year once the impact of higher gas prices feeds through. 

Posted by: @transparent

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I'm not disappointed or upset by today's announcements by the Secretary of State.

I would, of course, have preferred it if DESNZ had underpinned the announcement for Plug-In Solar with actual supporting evidence.
Instead we are left with a vague indication that it will "drive down prices", because we won't be reliant on oil.

https://youtube.com/shorts/xkIJjWagmms?si=LfHtFDZeE439-sfb

 

We are absolutely right to discuss the technicalities here on the Forum...
... provided we then disseminate that knowledge widely from the local pub to the Local Council 🙂 

 

Posted by: @jamespa

↑

I dont know if modern inverters shut down if they detect overvoltage.

Yes. The G98 standards still exist, but I am noticing a more loose interpretation is being implemented by manufacturers.

 

Let me post here in public, a section of a conversation I had with @editor earlier today:

 

Up until now the safety of electricity in the home has rested on the need to employ a professional electrician, who has qualifications and insurance through his affiliation to a safety-standards body.

The public are permitted to plug in 'demand appliances' to 13A outlets which enjoy the protection from the trips in the consumer unit.

Hard-wired solar and storage battery inverters are also connected to the consumer unit by a qualified electrician.  It's only the extra-low-voltage battery cells which can be assembled by enthusiasts like me.

 

For the first time ever, the IET Wiring Regulations are being over-ridden by consumer-installed generation devices.

To facilitate that change, the user-protection must be an integral part of the micro-inverter which comes as part of the kit, rather than being imposed by devices installed professionally in the consumer unit.

But Balcony Solar in particular is intended to be 'cheap' and the market will soon become open to micro-inverter clones which are not tested/certified. There will also be unofficial repair-shops to which you can send a 'broken' micro-inverter. After all, you're unlikely to return it to Lidl or Amazon because you won't know enough about it to confirm that it's the micro-inverter at fault. Nor will you know if that 'fault' has damaged your RCBO of course.

 

It's the higher level of risk which causes the electrical trade bodies to sound the alarm.

 

Testing and discussions have been going on for some time. It was in the Solar Road map published by the government. So this isn't new news for the trade bodies, DNOs, manufactures or retailers. 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/solar-roadmap/solar-roadmap-united-kingdom-powered-by-solar-accessible-webpage#fnref:28