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How would you rate the design, installation and efficiency of your heat pump system? Poll is created on Nov 06, 2022

  
  
  
  
  
  

[Sticky] Rate the quality of your heat pump design and installation

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(@iantelescope)
Reputable Member Contributor
1357 kWhs
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 198
 

@derek-m 

The type number on the tank is

AE050RXYDEG/AE00RNWMEG

The 2091 Field settings reflect several of my attempts when changing all the parameters in the 2091,2092 ans 2093. Just in case.

I initially thought , just like Craig , that my 8 minute Short cycling period was set by the fourth option.

When asked, the French Samsung Engineer said that he did not understand any of these options having no background in Electronics or Electronic  logic.

He added that , in any case, these options did not do very much, again saying that "only the Germans understood the  PWM and the 2091 options".

Franco Prussian War of 1871 is still , apparently , being fought !

ian

 

 


   
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(@derek-m)
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Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 4168
 

So what is the actual setting of 2091?

I am aware of the competence of some french 'engineers', having worked with a number in the past.

Where are you located by the way?

 

This post was modified 3 months ago by Mars

   
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(@iantelescope)
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Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 198
 

@derek-m 

Hi Derek,

I have mostly used 2091 with "Water pump App no 3 " the fourth option.

This option produces a temperature surge some 7 minutes after the start of the cycle.

This surge was presumably designed to increase the Cycle time .

This option also produces a 2 C Hysteresis , again, designed to further increase the Cycle time.

The Samsung Software is here deigned to mimic the behaviour of the best hardware Thermostats.

My cycle time is increased slightly when using 2091 ,Water Pump App no 3.

This morning I changed the setting to Water Pump App no 2 , for experimentation again.

This post was modified 3 months ago by Mars

   
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(@iantelescope)
Reputable Member Contributor
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Joined: 1 year ago
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@derek-m 

Hi Derek,

I am located in Inchinnan ( The INCH , or Island of St Innan ) a town  between the Cart and the Clyde although no longer an island.

Officially, Inchinnan is part of Renfrew.

Underneath my house , are the remains of "Criegiehall" a former croft owned by the Scottish  Knights Templar from 1158.

ian

 


   
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cathodeRay
(@cathoderay)
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6909 kWhs
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 1391
 

@iantelescope - date-time formats can be very tricky, especially with software that likes to be 'clever' - and then gets, for example, month and day mixed up, or tells you the date time is 456930 and then just for a joke tells you the 4th of January is April Fools Day. Spreadsheets can be especially creative in this way. There are various options:

1. Treat the date-time stamps as categories not date-time. They need to be in order, and equally spaced, which of course they are often not.

2. Process the date-times into an acceptable format in a spreadsheet. This is an option that works well for folks that don't get out very often. For example, force the date-time into a string (eg add spaces/text characters) and then do string extraction to get the various parts eg chars 1-4 are year etc.

3. Use python. This is what I do. You can tell python what format your date-time strings should have:

>>> from datetime import datetime

>>> now = datetime.now()
>>> print(now)
2024-02-23 15:48:51.027361
>>> print(type(now))
<class 'datetime.datetime'>

>>> now = now.strftime("%Y-%m-%dT%H:%M:%S")
>>> print(now)
2024-02-23T15:48:51
>>> print(type(now))
<class 'str'> 

which takes a python datetime and coverts it to a string of my choosing.

You can also (this can be very useful) tell python what format your existing date-time strings have (I have changed the hour from 34 to 14), and make them into datetimes:

>>> telescopeTime = '2024-02-17-14-35-12'
>>> print(type(telescopeTime))
<class 'str'>

>>> telescopeTime = datetime.strptime(telescopeTime, '%Y-%m-%d-%H-%M-%S')
>>> print(telescopeTime)
2024-02-17 14:35:12
>>> print(type(telescopeTime))
<class 'datetime.datetime'>
 

Note the key methods are very similar, only one letter different: strftime and strptime.

The above examples are for single variables to show the conversion process. In practice, you read the CSV data into a pandas dataframe (in effect an internal invisible spreadsheet inside python) and do the manipulations on columns. Pandas also has it's own datetime conversions.

The best plotting system I have found so far that produces pleasing charts without needing painfully complicated code is python's plotly express module, which I use to produce charts like this (last weeks data) from CSV files via pandas dataframes:

image

 

BTB for those who notice the slightly slow recoveries after recent setbacks, I suspect these are wind/rain chill: my house does not like the wet windy weather it has been subject to of late.

Midea 14kW (for now...) ASHP heating both building and DHW


   
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(@iantelescope)
Reputable Member Contributor
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Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 198
 

@cathoderay 

Great stuff , I will have to try python for my graphs.

I would still recommend you try GNUPLOT with it's old fashioned 1970's Shell script format.

But , Thanks , I will have a look at python again, having tried  several different programs, languages and apps with my DATE/TIME Problem.

ian  

 

 


   
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cathodeRay
(@cathoderay)
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Posts: 1391
 

Posted by: @iantelescope

Great stuff , I will have to try python for my graphs.

Once you get the hang of it, it isn't complicated. This is a very simple unadorned example that gets data from my minute data csv file and plots it:

import pandas as pd

import plotly.graph_objects as go
from plotly.subplots import make_subplots

df = pd.read_csv(r'Z:\modbus\mideadata.csv')

fig = make_subplots()

fig.add_trace(
    go.Scatter(
            x = df['datetime'],
            y = df['LWT'],
            line_color = "#0087A2",
            name = 'LWT' 
    )
)

fig.add_trace(
    go.Scatter(
            x = df['datetime'],
            y = df['RWT'],
            line_color = "#FFC36E",
            name = 'RWT'
    )
)

fig.show()

It uses plotly graph_objects rather than plotly express (gives you a bit more flexibility), df is the dataframe, and df['LWT'] is a column in the dataframe. The datetime in the csv file is in the format '2023-03-21T11:58:18' and between them pandas and ploty work out that is a date time, and give this (which is interactive, I can zoom and pan etc) in my browser (I've zoomed in to the last three nights):   

image

 

 

 

 

Midea 14kW (for now...) ASHP heating both building and DHW


   
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(@derek-m)
Illustrious Member Moderator
13737 kWhs
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Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 4168
 

Posted by: @iantelescope

@derek-m 

Hi Derek,

I have mostly used 2091 with "Water pump App no 3 " the fourth option.

This option produces a temperature surge some 7 minutes after the start of the cycle.

This surge was presumably designed to increase the Cycle time .

This option also produces a 2 C Hysteresis , again, designed to further increase the Cycle time.

The Samsung Software is here deigned to mimic the behaviour of the best hardware Thermostats.

My cycle time is increased slightly when using 2091 ,Water Pump App no 3.

This morning I changed the setting to Water Pump App no 2 , for experimentation again.

We need to be precise on the information being passed back and forth.

Does 2091 contain the number 2 which is associated with Water Pump 1, or does 2091 contain the number 3 which is associated with Water Pump 2?

 


   
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(@iantelescope)
Reputable Member Contributor
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Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 198
 

@derek-m 

Hi Derek,

The 2091 options, confusingly,  actually allow the user to select from five options:

The user can use either the inbuilt Samsung Water Thermostat

OR

The User can use an external Thermostat  transmitting it's state with a On/OFF Signal.

Warning , further confusion arises from the use of the term "External Thermostat" .

This External Thermostat is NOT the ROOM Thermostat.

 

Option 0 : Do NOT use either the external OR the internal Thermostats.

Option 1: Use the  On/OFF Signal from the External Thermostat.

Option 2: Use the External Signal ON/OFF  OR fire the thermostat when the Pipe Water Temperature equals that selected by the user on the Samsung Front Panel.

Use a Hysteresis value of 0 degrees meaning that a ON to OFF  Thermostat Temperature transition is equal to the OFF to ON Transition.

This option is Designated as  "Water Pump 1". Note not Pump 1 , application 1.

Option 3: Use the External Signal ON/OFF  OR fire the thermostat when the Pipe Water Temperature equals that selected by the user on the Samsung Front Panel.

Use a Hysteresis value of 1 degree meaning that a ON to OFF  Thermostat Temperature transition is one degree  C greater than  the OFF to ON Transition.

This option is Designated as  "Water Pump 2".

Option 4: Use the External Signal ON/OFF  OR fire the thermostat when the Pipe Water Temperature equals that selected by the user on the Samsung Front Panel.

Use a Hysteresis value of 1 degree meaning that a ON to OFF  Temperature transition is one degree  C greater than  the OFF to ON Transition.

This option is Designated as  "Water Pump 3".

Option 4 Cycle modification.

When the ON to OFF signal is generated by the Thermostat a delay timer of 3 minutes duration is started.

When  the delay is completed the Water Motor is stopped for seven minutes.

With the completion of the seven minute motor stop the motor is started for three minutes.

During these three minutes the  water temperature is increased ,  increasing the cycle time .  

The motor is turned OFF for seven more minutes completing option 4.

 

Why use Hysteresis and mid-Cycle pulsing   :

1) Hysteresis greatly reduces Thermostat misfiring in the presence of signal or thermal noise.

2) Mid- Cycle pulsing also reduces misfiring caused by noise and slightly increases the cycle time. 

Sorry for the explanation . this is, however, not easy to explain with the use of conflicting numbers particularly confusing.

A first rate Technical Author would be required.

No Wonder the French Samsung Engineer could not understand this !

This post was modified 3 months ago by Mars

   
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(@derek-m)
Illustrious Member Moderator
13737 kWhs
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Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 4168
 

@iantelescope

There is no need to provide a detailed explanation, I have a copy of your file.

The question that I asked was 'what is the present setting of 2091'? Could you also provide the values within 2092 and 2093?


   
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(@mike-h)
Reputable Member Member
1138 kWhs
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 121
 

Posted by: @iantelescope

Option 0 : Do NOT use either the external OR the internal Thermostats.

This is incorrect. This setting allows you to use the thermostat in the wired controller and set up room temperature mode. The water law settings still apply, but you can control your heating by setting different room temperature targets for different times of the day via the weekly schedule facility. There are two examples on a different forum, where changing to room temperature mode made a huge difference to their short cycling. Since I changed to this mode, I haven't had any short cycling even with outside temperatures as high as 13C. The wired controller has to be in a suitable location for this to work, but moving it is not difficult.

If you haven't tried this mode, then I strongly recommend it, although I get the feeling that your unusual piping set up is not helping.


   
Derek M reacted
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(@iantelescope)
Reputable Member Contributor
1357 kWhs
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 198
 

@derek-m 

Hi Derek,

 

Option 2092:

The Field option, 2092 is not used, being the control for an Second, unused,  Zone.

The Field Option ,2092 uses the Graphical control Graph Water Law 2, WL2.

I have No second Zone.

 

Option 2093:

The Field option, 2093 is not used, being the control for an Third , unused, control in another Zone.

The Field Option ,2093 uses the Graphical control Graph Water Law 2, WL2.

 

Option 2091:

The Field option, 2091 is used, allowing, in my case, the operation of the Front panel  Water Law ( Samsung  Weather compensation) Offset Thermostat. 

The Field Option ,2091 uses the Graphical control Graph Water Law 1, WL1.

 

The Water Law  ( Samsung Weather Compensation ) Control Graphs ,

 

Option 201:

The Outside Temperatures , graphical ordinates, for Both Water Law 1 and Water Law 2 are set by Field bits 201.

Field bit 201 has two Sub fields , a Low outside  Temperature and High Outside Temperature.

Confusingly, the Low Temperature is here the highest , outside Graphical coordinate value of 15 C.

Equally, confusingly , the High Temperature is the lowest value , being varied between -2 C  ( England), -5 C ( South Scotland ) and -6 C ( North Scotland).

I have used , and varied the High setting between -4 and -6C as directed by the Samsung Manuals , You tube videos and talks with "experts".

 

Option 202:

The Field bit 202 has two Sub Fields setting the graphical  co-ordinates  for Water Law 1 Only.

The Water Temperature has here , Two Coordinates.

1): The required Water Temperature when the Outside Temperature is High , varied between +30 and +35C.

2): The required Water Temperature when the Outside Temperature is Low ( -3,-5 or -6 C) , varied between +40 and +50 C.

 

The Temperature Water Law 1 ( Samsung Weather Compensation ) with Offset is shown on the following:

WL1 A

 Where the Water Temperature was set to +30 C when the outside Temperature was +15 C.

The Water Temperature was set to +45 C when the Outside Temperature was - 5 C.

 

Option 203:

The Temperature Water Law 2 ( Samsung Weather Compensation on Zone 2) with Offset is shown on the following:

WL2 1

Where the Water Temperature was set to +30 C when the outside Temperature was +15 C or greater.

The Water Temperature was set to +40 C when the Outside Temperature was - 5 C or lower.

 

Definitely thought up by someone with a passion for Y=mX + C , "O Level Maths".

ian

 


   
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