Plate heat exchanger considerations
@jamespa I don't understand any point in an air test, if that fails, then the pipes are then broken, and the system cannot be refilled without digging up concrete and ruining finishes. Am I missing something?
Also, will the secondary circuit behind the PHE count towards the system volume of the primary circuit with the heat pump on it, or will we also need a volumizer? Why don't hot water circuits need minimum volumes?
Posted by: @scalextrix@jamespa I don't understand any point in an air test, if that fails, then the pipes are then broken, and the system cannot be refilled without digging up concrete and ruining finishes. Am I missing something?
If it blows open a joint or a pipe you are correct of course. Perhaps more likely it will detect an existing slow leak due eg to a pinhole in a solder joint or even a pipe and the leak will be detectable in the air pressure but not much water leaks out. Most likely it will detect nothing, but in principle the risk you identify does exist.
Posted by: @scalextrixAlso, will the secondary circuit behind the PHE count towards the system volume of the primary circuit with the heat pump on it, or will we also need a volumizer? Why don't hot water circuits need minimum volumes?
If the pump speeds are correctly matched and the PHE correctly plumbed then yes, but if, for example, the secondary pump is switched on and off by a thermostat (which some installers do) then no, because there is no guarantee that the secondary will be in circuit during defrost.
DHW circuits dont need min volumes because either (a) the heat pump switches to heating mode when doing defrost or (b) the dhw in the tank has sufficient energy which is transferred via the coil. I dont actually know which, or whether some heat pumps switch and others dont.
4kW peak of solar PV since 2011; EV and a 1930s house which has been partially renovated to improve its efficiency. 7kW Vaillant heat pump.
Posted by: @jamespathere is no guarantee that the secondary will be in circuit during defrost
Thanks, this is what I was thinking about, so as long as heat energy can transfer back through the PHE into the primary circuit during defrost, then that's fine. I suppose the secondary pump needs to run off of the same circuit as the primary pump so they are matched.
I suppose the other issue is cycling, and I can't quite get that straight in my head. Suppose as long as the PHE is doing it's job well, then the return flow temperature drop to the HP, will keep it running?
Posted by: @scalextrixI suppose the secondary pump needs to run off of the same circuit as the primary pump so they are matched.
They need to be switched on/off together. The pump rates may differ however. There is a bit of an science to setting up PHEs which I haven't fully understood yet; your installer should of course do this correctly but we all know what installers are like
Posted by: @scalextrixI suppose the other issue is cycling, and I can't quite get that straight in my head. Suppose as long as the PHE is doing it's job well, then the return flow temperature drop to the HP, will keep it running?
Depends on how the water pumps work. Some heat pumps leave the water pump running 24x7, others allow it to switch off and then switch it back on again from time to time to sample the current conditions. This is something again the installer needs to think about and understand properly. Unfortunately this is another reason to deprecate the use of PHEs (but I understand why you are proposing to have one).
Incidentally an acquaintance of mine is currently proposing to run his HP on a vented system without a PHE. Not sure what installers will make of that.
4kW peak of solar PV since 2011; EV and a 1930s house which has been partially renovated to improve its efficiency. 7kW Vaillant heat pump.
Posted by: @jamespaIncidentally an acquaintance of mine is currently proposing to run his HP on a vented system without a PHE. Not sure what installers will make of that.
As far as I can tell my vented system would have a peak pressure of about 0.5 Bar, which technically does meet the absolute minimum pressure of the ASHP (also 0.5Bar) specifications, but you are then hoping the sensor is very accurate and if it isn't, fault codes and no heating I suppose.
I wish your acquaintance all the best!
- 26 Forums
- 2,102 Topics
- 46.2 K Posts
- 133 Online
- 3,388 Members
Latest Posts
-
RE: Plug and play solar. Thoughts?
And we have it: DESNZ are now investigating the feasi...
By Lucia , 45 minutes ago
-
RE: Compressor attempts start but fails - Nibe Fighter 2005 8kW
@skyefarmer great you located the source of the issue a...
By Mars , 5 hours ago
-
RE: Location of hot water isolation valve on cylinder
@rossowheels if you isolate the water supply in it will...
By ASHP-BOBBA , 14 hours ago
-
RE: Ecodan consuming 100kwh per day in new build!!!
From what you say about the radiators upstairs it does ...
By JamesPa , 19 hours ago
-
The Importance of Radiator Balancing for Efficient Heating: Introducing the Flow Regulating Valve
It’s fascinating to watch how low-temperature heating i...
By Mars , 22 hours ago
-
@heacol, if you're around, can you please provide some ...
By Mars , 1 day ago
-
RE: Servicing Hitachi HP in rural Somerset
I'd give GreenGenUK a call or email them: sales@greenge...
By Mars , 1 day ago
-
RE: Heating coming on when not required
I played with a max heating temp but there is a world o...
By JamesPa , 2 days ago
-
RE: Pressure drop Primary circuit
I've always regarded topping up heating systems as my j...
By JamesPa , 2 days ago
-
RE: Heat pump solutions and/or installer recommendations for France
I’d travel to France for work if you were struggling wi...
By Damon Blakemore , 2 days ago
-
RE: 5 Star Service from Havenwise
That's always a danger with any new good idea, @morgan....
By Majordennisbloodnok , 2 days ago
-
Have your say in the Renewable Heating Hub Awards
It’s time to celebrate the best (and call out the worst...
By Mars , 3 days ago
-
-
RE: Mitsubishi cycling while on chilled water output
@iaack yes there's no denying that cold air sinks! I s...
By downfield , 3 days ago
-
RE: Weather compensated secondary circuits with Biomass
@andycoo that flooring sounds ideal. Extra volume is ...
By Sune , 3 days ago
-
If you are thinking of heating on the immersion conside...
By JamesPa , 4 days ago