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My horrific Samsung heat pump installation and experience

iantelescope · 2023-04-08T09:08:30Z

I am, now, in my tenth month in an attempt to get a Working , efficient Heat Pump. I arranged for three quotes for the installation of the heat pump. All three quotes specified that an 8kw Heat pump was required, although from three different manufacturers. On selecting my "installer" I was told that 8W Heat pump were unavailable, and that 6kw "would do". The "installer" then said that the "Warmflow" 6kw Heat pump was also unavailable and that a 5 KW SAMSUNG, that the installer had just received "would do" The installation started on 1st July 2022 was missing five major components including a Flow sensor,Thermostat, Expansion vessel and Two PRV(s). The Heat Pump was , eventually started on 1 August 2022 after numerous "mistakes " in fitting the Flow sensor to the wrong pipe and or the wrong position on the pipe. I have protested to the MCS,NIC RECC,EST Scotland , Consumer complaints Scotland , Citizens advice Scotland and the Scottish Government.. After Ten months when my installed was "struck OFF twice by the NIC " I have been told that "nothing can be done" and that I must seek legal advice Only the intervention of the Scottish Government has saved me from the large bills that have resulted from this fiasco. My SAMSUNG HEAT PUMP continues to generate large electricity bills caused by the large energy consumption caused by the low Flow temperatures . yours ian

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Air Source Heat Pumps (ASHPs)

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JamesPa

(@jamespa)

Illustrious Member Moderator

Joined: 3 years ago

Posts: 4717

06/09/2023 10:44 am

"Can you define "Short Cycling"?

Is this short Cycling , acceptable , during April , during the prime Short cycling month of April?"

Unfortunately there is no definitive answer to this but, as @derek-m says 6 times per hour, a 10 min period, is the frequently quoted rule of thumb, which probably dates from times prior to inverter driven compressors which have a slow start up reducing wear, thus I have absolutely no faith in it! It's the same problem in modelling terms as on/off operation, so at present I don't know of any actual quantitative results. John Cantor does discuss it on his YouTube videos and does a bit of quantitative work on a couple of examples.

In qualitative terms, if it's cycling when it's 7 ish or less outside, either you have a problem or your system is oversized or you should probably open up some more trvs and maybe run at a lower flow temp.

If it's cycling at 15+, then that's no surprise at all.

If it's cycling at zub zero temps you have a serious issue.

And some long cycling, due as much to load variations as the OAT changes, are perfectly fine.

As a warning, it's very easy to overthink heat pumps and become a bit obsessed with them. I should know! If you get the basics right as I and others have suggested, you will be in a much better position. So if I were you I'd concentrate on this before anything else, for the benefit of your own sanity.

4kW peak of solar PV since 2011; EV and a 1930s house which has been partially renovated to improve its efficiency. 7kW Vaillant heat pump.

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iantelescope

(@iantelescope)

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Joined: 3 years ago

Posts: 418

Topic starter 06/09/2023 11:06 am

@derek-m

Many Thanks Derek.

My Water Law settings are :

The Water Law Graph is defined by several bits in the Samsung Controller memory.

The Offsets, above and below the central Water Law graph, are set by the Samsung Front panel Thermostat.

Because the outside Temperatures are currently 23 C the Heat Pump is inactive.

As James says, I am becoming obsessed with Heat Pumps ...............

Time for a break from Heat Pumps!

Many thanks !

ian

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Fazel

(@fazel)

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06/09/2023 11:18 am

6 times per hour? How about "6" times per day?

https://emoncms.org/samsung5kw

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JamesPa

(@jamespa)

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06/09/2023 11:26 am

Posted by: @fazel

↑

6 times per hour? How about "6" times per day?

https://emoncms.org/samsung5kw

-- Attachment is not available -- -- Attachment is not available --

With an OAT of 5C which is what the graphs say you have, you would indeed expect that or better. Remember that cycling occurs when the heat pump cant modulate down to match the load. At 5C it can, unless its been really badly over-sized.

4kW peak of solar PV since 2011; EV and a 1930s house which has been partially renovated to improve its efficiency. 7kW Vaillant heat pump.

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Fazel

(@fazel)

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06/09/2023 11:35 am

Posted by: @jamespa

↑

Posted by: @fazel

↑

6 times per hour? How about "6" times per day?

https://emoncms.org/samsung5kw

-- Attachment is not available -- -- Attachment is not available --

With an OAT of 5C which is what the graphs say you have, you would indeed expect that or better. Remember that cycling occurs when the heat pump cant modulate down to match the load. At 5C it can, unless its been really badly over-sized.

At higher outdoor temps it just runs less often.

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Derek M

(@derek-m)

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Posts: 4425

06/09/2023 12:07 pm

@fazel

Do you have any thermostats controlling your system?

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Fazel

(@fazel)

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06/09/2023 12:18 pm

Posted by: @derek-m

↑

@fazel

Do you have any thermostats controlling your system?

👍

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Derek M

(@derek-m)

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Posts: 4425

06/09/2023 12:36 pm

@fazel

So I assume that your heat pump is being operated in the same manner, which goes to prove that optimisation of your particular system is key to achieving best overall thermal efficiency.

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Fazel

(@fazel)

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06/09/2023 12:47 pm

Posted by: @derek-m

↑

@fazel

So I assume that your heat pump is being operated in the same manner, which goes to prove that optimisation of your particular system is key to achieving best overall thermal efficiency.

That's universally agreed, that optimisation of a system is key to achieving best overall efficiency.

Optimisation should start before the quote is accepted, not after the start up of the system.

👍

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Derek M

(@derek-m)

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Posts: 4425

06/09/2023 1:07 pm

@fazel

I fully agree, if the system design is correct then optimising the operation of the system is much easier. The problem is that I suspect that most customers, either don't have the technical knowledge and information to be involved in the design, or since they are paying for a 'system designer' to do this work then why should they have to get involved.

It would appear that many installers also don't have the ability or inclination to fully optimise a system once it has been installed.

Doesn't bode well for the future.

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iantelescope

(@iantelescope)

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Joined: 3 years ago

Posts: 418

Topic starter 07/09/2023 3:29 pm

@fazel

fazel, I am green with envy.

If only I could get Six cycles per day !

I have a system that was NOT designed , but , chosen because my "installer" discovered a cheap Heat Pump in the local outlet of a large Plumbing supplies Organisation.

Unfortunately, the Heat Pump came with an Heat Exchanger which my "installer" proceeded to ignore .

Do you have an heat exchanger ?

Do you have a Buffer ?

ian

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iantelescope

(@iantelescope)

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Joined: 3 years ago

Posts: 418

Topic starter 07/09/2023 3:42 pm

@derek-m

Yes Derek, I agree with you .......... I should have Designed my Heat Pump myself.

External pipe Temperature Sensors?

The Only affordable sensors appear to be K type sensors which attach to the outside of the copper pipes.

This external temperature sensing can be inaccurate if not very inaccurate with the Temperature measurement being the Temperature of the copper , not the water!

Internal pipe Temperature Sensors?

These Sensors appear to be very accurate, judging by my experience with my German "Sharky".

Excellent but completely unaffordable.

How do you measure internal water Temperatures?

ian

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