Posted by: @editor

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more often than not it's a game of installer Russian roulette

To which I might add, if you aim low enough, sooner or later you will shoot yourself in the foot. That is what sooner or later the industry will find it has done. In the meantime, we are the passers by caught in the crossfire.

@cathoderay

Having been involved with the RHH from its early days, like you, I too was quite surprised to read the disparaging comments about the forum and its members. I cannot think of any suitable explanation for such comments to have been made.

I don't know the exact details, but I suspect that the forum has helped many of the members find and resolve issues with their systems, and in the process help reduce their energy consumption.

@derek-m, you have helped more people by yourself on the forums (as a non-heating 'expert') than all the heating engineers I know put together over the past two years and we're indebted to your time and commitment as a keyboard warrior.

I find it astounding that trained heating engineers don't want to share their ASHP knowledge to empower the consumer base so that homeowners can demand better design and system installation. This would make the industry so much more reputable, and it would help consumers identify and weed out cowboy installers. 

I've also found that homeowners sharing their experiences and insights on the forums have also helped countless visitors here, and the traffic in the last month has exploded, with many reading and getting information and not posting, so it's impossible to quantify how many people have taken away useful information in a bid to help them understand their own systems or how to tweak and make them more efficient.

Thank you to everyone that has contributed their experiences and knowledge on these forums.  

@editor

Hi Mars,

With each passing year, (which appear to be passing much too rapidly 🙁 ) I get more and more concerned with the way in which the World and society appear to be deteriorating, so I am only too happy to be able to help others in some small way. I hope that your forum goes from strength to strength in the future.

I think that you may have already answered your own question about why Heating Engineers are not making information readily available. It is vested interest. It is not good for business for customers to ask relevant questions, particularly if they cannot easily be answered.

I don't know for certain, so please don't quote me, but I would suspect that equipment manufacturers are not particularly interested if their equipment is correctly installed and commissioned. They would probably only become concerned if they started to get negative press that started affecting sales.

The system designers may receive some form of incentive to incorporate certain manufacturers equipment within their designs.

I suspect many installers are more interested in completing the work with the least amount of hassle and the maximum amount of profit.

The customer is required to accept what is offered, do not ask any questions, and pay the bill promptly.

All in all it is just 'good' business. 🙄 

Being an old cynic sometimes has its uses. 😜 

Posted by: @cathoderay

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Posted by: @julianc

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Have you seen the way Audi size their cars? 35,40,50 etc just gives a rough indication of the power scale. I see the ASHP 18kW as something similar

That's not the same thing, as your comment makes clear: the 35, 40, 55 etc are arbitrary vaguely ordinal numbers (could just as easily be 3 4 and 5 or 350 400 and 500 or whatever you want) with no units and no actual relation to HP, they are just model numbers. On the other hand, 18kW has a unit (kW, something you can measure) attached, and so implies actual output. If a unit is described as a Midea 14kW heat pump, a consumer will, and is entitled to assume, it has a 14kW output over its expected in use range. Otherwise, what does the 14kW mean? What not call it a 24kW unit and say it is up to the designer/consumer to discover it is a 11kW unit?

Under your system, supermarkets could sell 1.5kg bags of spuds, and then say it is up to the consumer to discover when they get home and open the bag  that a 1.5kg bag only contains 1.1kg of spuds. All the 1.5kG meant was that it was bigger than a 1kg bag. When there is a legitimate difference in total weight sold and usable contents, eg tinned goods, it is made clear by stating the net weight.    

@JulianC we'll have to agree to disagree then. As @cathoderay says it's not the same thing.  There is no other explanation to exaggeration on the badges of these machines other than to mislead.  And I'll bet a lot of it is to match or out-kilowatt other manufacturers.  In @cathoderay's case I wonder if it's a coincidence the 14kW badge on his ASHP matches that of another well known manufacturer (the 'average' one).  Only this one can (according to its figures) actually deliver 14kW in the conditions where it will be needed. 

As it happens, the various German car manufacturers have been badging their cars with numbers that relate to engine size and therefore, in theory, performance. However, a BMW 318 (a 3-series with a 1.8L engine) contains an engine that's actually 1905cc. In other words, the manufacturers have been deliberately gaming the system to imply their 1.8 has better performance than it ought to. Isn't that exactly what we're saying the heat pump manufacturers are doing?

I remember in one of Terry Pratchett's books a description of a culture which valued accuracy and which would never allow a metaphor like "a face that launched a thousand ships" without shipping certificates to prove it. It might spoil the poetry of our language but there's nonetheless a lot to be said for that approach being applied to marketing departments.

Posted by: @majordennisbloodnok

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As it happens, the various German car manufacturers have been badging their cars with numbers that relate to engine size and therefore, in theory, performance. However, a BMW 318 (a 3-series with a 1.8L engine) contains an engine that's actually 1905cc. In other words, the manufacturers have been deliberately gaming the system to imply their 1.8 has better performance than it ought to. Isn't that exactly what we're saying the heat pump manufacturers are doing?

I remember in one of Terry Pratchett's books a description of a culture which valued accuracy and which would never allow a metaphor like "a face that launched a thousand ships" without shipping certificates to prove it. It might spoil the poetry of our language but there's nonetheless a lot to be said for that approach being applied to marketing departments.

Tut tut Major, go wash your mouth out with soap, business and the World would grind to a halt. ☹️ 

@editor totally agree. It is completely hit and miss finding a good installer. As I said on the interview I did for renewableheatinghub YouTube site. 
I do not have an answer. Other than word of mouth; asking questions like “will you be doing the installation at my home?”  How many have you installed?  Why a Daikin over an LG, etc. how do i improve my SCOP?  What compromises are you making I’m my installation over ideal?  What are your design parameters? What are your assumptions? Why locate the unit there? Service and support and maintenance contact?  Where are spare parts stored and for how many years after manufacturing ceases? Talk to your chosen ashp manufacturer support team - do they seem responsive and helpful?

I think there are some things that consumers/home owners need to educate themselves on, and some things that consumers can't/shouldn't be expected to educate themselves on. For the former, forums like this are invaluable, but more publicly available information on heat pump installs are still necessary. It's really hard to find the necessary information even to evaluate installers and pick the best one. For the latter, there needs to be both effective regulation and effective enforcement of that regulation. There's no point having rules if there is no recourse when those rules aren't followed. And the rules need to make sense not just for installers but also for consumers.

I fear the government is too enamoured by free market principles to support greater regulation here; it seems that "caveat emptor" applies, even if the information asymmetry results in a sub-optimal market equilibrium where consumers lose out. But stronger regulation that gives consumers the confidence to make big investments in their own homes is surely necessary if the government wants to hit heat pump installation and CO2 emissions targets. The government approach appears to be, "we need to hit target X so let's have minimal regulation and allow underqualified installers to put in whatever they want and over-charge for it". Instead it should be asking "what's preventing us from hitting target X? How do we remove those barriers?" Regulation and enforcement is surely part of the answer there.

Posted by: @scrchngwsl

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information asymmetry results in a sub-optimal market equilibrium where consumers lose out

A "market for lemons" as it is sometimes known. It is an utter disgrace how much UK money is being frittered away by incompetent regulation.

Posted by: @kev-m

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Have you tried the support like on 0161 866 6064?  I'm not saying they'll be able to help but I have called them a couple of times recently and they did answer.

I used the app so I think I cannot see what number it used. They said they'll call back or email and never did. Maybe I will try the number you give when I hit another problem.