Posted by: @jamespa

↑

Posted by: @crimson

↑

16.5 it was 0.33 factor instead of 0.237.

Thats strange.  Then output of convection radiators is always, so far as I am aware, proportional to DT^1.3.  There are minor variations in the exponent, perhaps 0.02 either way of 1.3, but these are obviously just rounding.  The physics is the same after all.

I suppose its possible eskimo have some clever tubework for the airflow, but if so why dont others also do this?

I would personally be suspicious until I had heard a convincing explanation of why eskimo is materially different!

missed this sorry. No idea why, builder and installers contacted them and they stood by their factors. I think I saw them on some programme after the fact and they were going on about size v output etc.

the 0.237 came from the company that has the software that the installers were using, after a lot of prodding to find out what correction factor was being used (the way the heat calc displayed the info really wasnt that clear). Again thats all been checked at least 4x, with the specialist checking also.

Putting the Eskimos against 0.237 ignoring Eskimos own correction factor they still came out ok (had a screenshot of a table I had - 1 living room came out 4% over, 1 7% under - but actually better of the 2 rooms, hall - 92% over).

this was also something we raised at the rad upsize, could Eskimo rads just be even wider to make sure, but they insisted they’d work…

It’s the same story am afraid, they say a fix will work, it doesn’t then blame the Eskimos when they’ve been given opportunities to sort it (they easily could put in 2m wide instead of 1.4m wide ones in 3 spots and a 1.2 in another spot, which i think gave equivalent of adding another 2 radiators).

Posted by: @crimson

↑

I got them to send me written evidence from Grant for the LLH...

So my comments to this are:

• Protection against low system volume in oversized or zoned radiator systems

can be achieved with a volumiser or bypass valve without system penalty

• Balanced flow rates across mixed emitters (radiators, UFH, etc.)

nonsense, but can be achieved by balancing

• Improved air and dirt separation when combined with appropriate magnetic filtration

This is a function of slowing the flow down ie a larhge tank, plumb the LLH as 2 pipe will still do this

• Compliance with hydraulic separation guidance for heat pump installations

er thats saying - because we (or someone else) says so.

I realise this doesnt help, but you are definitely being given the run around.  I would be tempted to challenge with Grant directly but I also understand that this is taking up too much of your time.

@jamespa 

agreed, your comments are basically the heat specialists responses to Grants mail.

Got to say, wish

A) builder listened to me when said had no confidence in the installers 2023 when they couldn't suggest radiators (only having one brand to recommend seems so bizarre to me). Sending a client an entire catalog of rads without remotely suggesting what would physically fit and what would work was what really got me. And thats after promoting constantly for a good month or so. 

B) wish I didn’t have a Grant unit. Its not very usable as a consumer and the company themselves keep giving conflicting views (I emailed agrant separately and they said a LLH isnt required but a volumiser is…). I’d like a unit that I can see the COP in an app and adjust flow temps, weather curve etc without doing some mad 3 finger key combo and enter random codes. Also the wife hates when I show how to boost the hot water and it has 4 zones, only 1 is the one used. The panels are utter trite. Maybe the panel replacement will help with that but thats a cost I shouldn’t have had to incur if they used something decent in first place. And the hot water cycle running an hour even if its hit hot water temp, meaning the house loses heat for no reason. The list goes on.

Posted by: @crimson

↑

this was also something we raised at the rad upsize, could Eskimo rads just be even wider to make sure, but they insisted they’d work…

It’s the same story am afraid, they say a fix will work, it doesn’t then blame the Eskimos when they’ve been given opportunities to sort it (they easily could put in 2m wide instead of 1.4m wide ones in 3 spots and a 1.2 in another spot, which i think gave equivalent of adding another 2 radiators).

Well thats good in a way.  Eventually they will be forced to admit that their fixes dont work and actually do what they need to do, if you have that much patience that is!

Im really sorry you are having this much trouble, its shocking how ignorant (and indeed conniving) some parts of the heating industry, indeed the building industry generally, are. 

Sadly you are not alone.  I had a not dissimilar class of experience with 'M&E Consultants' on a job I was responsible for at work.  They had been employed by an architect who knew nothing about anything to do with M&E.  Basically they gave us a load of nonsense both about both heating and electricals, which, had we just believed them without question, would have cost an extra £100,000 on a £1M job.  Fortunately, with a background in physics, I was able to interrogate (and eventually replace) them before they did too much damage.

From what you say you have been careful all along to interrogate your installer and make sure the responsibility rests with them.  I guess its down to your patience whether you persist until they give in (if necessary in the face of legal action) or cut your losses and shell out.  I must confess to doing the latter two years ago with a roofing fiasco that nearly flooded my house on boxing day.  I was angry at the time, but on balance it was probably the right decision for my mental health and relationship!

Posted by: @jamespa

↑

Posted by: @crimson

↑

this was also something we raised at the rad upsize, could Eskimo rads just be even wider to make sure, but they insisted they’d work…

It’s the same story am afraid, they say a fix will work, it doesn’t then blame the Eskimos when they’ve been given opportunities to sort it (they easily could put in 2m wide instead of 1.4m wide ones in 3 spots and a 1.2 in another spot, which i think gave equivalent of adding another 2 radiators).

Well thats good in a way.  Eventually they will be forced to admit that their fixes dont work and actually do what they need to do, if you have that much patience that is!

Im really sorry you are having this much trouble, its shocking how ignorant some parts of the heating industry, indeed the building industry generally, are. 

I had a not dissimilar type of experience with 'M&E Consultants' on a job I was responsible for at work.  They had been employed by an architect who knew nothing about anything to do with M&E.  Basically they gave us a load of nonsense both about both heating and electricals, which, had we just believed them without question, would have cost an extra £100,000 on a £1M job.  Fortunately, with a background in physics, I was able to interrogate (and eventually replace) them.

 

Thanks, patience is something I’m trying to maintain (third winter now and I’ve stock piled some wood lol). Thankfully the architect had foresight to hold back more funds to keep this all in play.

I do hope they eventually get put in a corner and have to do something sensible/maybe even say to Grant these LLHs aren’t doing any favours.