@cathoderay 

My "installation" was fitted with a 50 l Volumising tank some six months after it was "installed".

I was given at least four opinions from Five different "experts" as to Why I needed a Volumising tank......

Why I need a volumising tank................

1 To protect the HEAT PUMP.

A Volumising tank would provide "Hydraulic Isolation" between the Radiators and the Heat Pump .

Any changes in water pressure or Flow rate on the radiators  would be isolated from the HEAT PUMP. ( from SAMSUNG Service)

2 . To protect the Heat PUMP during de-Icing.

During sharp frosts the Heat Pump should be protected from the ICE accumulation.

A Volumising tank should store enough Energy to "allow the De-ICing to Complete during severe frosts." ( from SAMSUNG DALLIUM , )

3. To prevent Rapid Cycling , or Hyper Cycling.

A increased volume of water in a volumising tank will reduce rate of temperature fall ...................... and increase  the Cycle time.

 See Buffer Sizing .....from MCS

After a dispute between my "installer" and SAMSUNG,  my "installer" was fired ,  and a  50 L Volumising tank was ordered..

Two engineers appeared to install the Volumising tank but explained "that they did not know why I needed a tank nor where to fit it!.

ian

Posted by: @cathoderay

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This is important information! Context means a lot when interpreting COPs.

I thought I did put enough context in place with my chart - re posted below.  I was showing clearly the COP as labelled for short periods of time.  I think with an average of 5.3 over a longer period of time (7 hours) the very high efficiency periods are not far from reality. 

Based on observations by others regarding Samsung Gen6 [specifically the poor insulation on the temperature probes], I may actually have an even higher COP than I do.

In short, I think that there are times in the year, when a well designed system coupled with good emitter characteristics (mine has some way to go on both) you can get and should be getting a high COP.

@derek-m 

Hi Derek,

No , I am still hyper-Cycling!

YES, I am still loosing lots of energy across the Heat Exchanger , pipes et al.!

After nearly of year of problems caused by my "installers" incompetence followed by the endless denials of responsibility from the NIC,MCS and the RECC ..........

I have been advised by the "charitable  " MCS and NIC to get a lawyer...............impossible for a 75 year old OAP.

Which is worse ....my "installer" or the Toothless Tigers of the "Charities" supposedly operating as regulators?

I should have installed this myself!

ian

@iantelescope what you've described is what is usually referred to as a buffer tank , due to the fact that its providing hydraulic isolation.  A cylinder (which may well be exactly the same part) when installed as in the way that is commonly described as a "volumiser", doesn't provide hydraulic isolation, but does provide the other points you mentioned.

see diagrams on pages 1 and 2 in here(yep, midsummer wholesale again)

Are you able to draw up a detailed system schematic so we can understand your system better with the goal of improving it?

if they didn't know where to fit it, there's at least a possibility that its not doing the right thing.

Posted by: @william1066

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I tried to find Samsung's equivalent to Midea's Engineering data book which has detained outputs (and COPs) at different ambients and LWTs  but didn't have any luck - maybe you have the data? It would provide another benchmark to compare your figures to.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=AE160RXYDEG%2FEU+Technical+Data+Book&rlz=1C1CHBF_enGB892GB892&ei=e3lGZN-iJJWV8gLdmLCIBQ&ved=0ahUKEwifzLjZxcL-AhWVilwKHV0MDFEQ4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=AE160RXYDEG%2FEU+Technical+Data+Book&gs_lcp=Cgxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAQAzIECAAQRzIECAAQRzIECAAQRzIECAAQRzIECAAQRzIECAAQRzIECAAQRzIECAAQRzoKCAAQRxDWBBCwA0oECEEYAFCxB1ixB2CsD2gBcAJ4AIABAIgBAJIBAJgBAKABAcgBCMABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

first result, page 29 of the pdf

@transparent on the "what sort of meter to use" point:  there's no reason for me to need larger screen of the 220, as I'll be reading it purely over modbus. 

I currently have this:

and intend to modify it to this 

does that make sense?

Posted by: @iantelescope

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@derek-m 

Hi Derek,

No , I am still hyper-Cycling!

YES, I am still loosing lots of energy across the Heat Exchanger , pipes et al.!

After nearly of year of problems caused by my "installers" incompetence followed by the endless denials of responsibility from the NIC,MCS and the RECC ..........

I have been advised by the "charitable  " MCS and NIC to get a lawyer...............impossible for a 75 year old OAP.

Which is worse ....my "installer" or the Toothless Tigers of the "Charities" supposedly operating as regulators?

I should have installed this myself!

ian

 

 

 

 

Are you using Weather Compensation (WC) mode?

What is the present Leaving Water Temperature (LWT) on your system?

Posted by: @iantelescope

↑

@derek-m 

Hi Derek,

No , I am still hyper-Cycling!

YES, I am still loosing lots of energy across the Heat Exchanger , pipes et al.!

After nearly of year of problems caused by my "installers" incompetence followed by the endless denials of responsibility from the NIC,MCS and the RECC ..........

I have been advised by the "charitable  " MCS and NIC to get a lawyer...............impossible for a 75 year old OAP.

Which is worse ....my "installer" or the Toothless Tigers of the "Charities" supposedly operating as regulators?

I should have installed this myself!

ian

 

 

 

 

This link was posted on the forum yesterday which you may find of use.

https://www.theheatinghub.co.uk/articles/raise-complaint-about-heat-pump-installation

Posted by: @iantelescope

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Two engineers appeared to install the Volumising tank but explained "that they did not know why I needed a tank nor where to fit it!.

Pretty much par for the course, though my installer was better, he not only suggested the volumiser in the first place when I mentioned the short cycling and showed him the charts with the short cycling clearly visible, he also knew what it did and where it could be fitted (in practice, wherever there is space in the heated areas in the house so its losses contribute to space heating).

Posted by: @william1066

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In short, I think that there are times in the year, when a well designed system coupled with good emitter characteristics (mine has some way to go on both) you can get and should be getting a high COP.

I am sure that's right, but for my part, I like to reassure myself I am not getting Maoist tractor production is up figures. Thanks to @dandee, I managed to have a look at the Samsung performance data, and it looks as though in favourable conditions COPs in the region of 6 are indeed possible with your unit. I think that means you can have more confidence in your results, but again, if it was me, I would be wary of being too pleased with myself. COPs of around 6 are extremely good, and most heat pumps won't get there most of the time. It will be interesting to hear what your SCOP is once the heating season is over, if you plan to calculate it. I think mine will be between 3.0 and 3.5, and although I now trust the energy in figure a bit more, I am still wary of the energy out. Now that I have found out that I do have an inline flow meter, I do have the option of verifying the modbus flow rates, which as previously noted tend to remain in a small range, meaning the only extra data I need to collect independently is the LWT and RWT. But that is probably something that will have to wait until the start of the next heating season, though I can set up the hardware over the summer.

@derek-m  @william1066

I now control of my Primary Water loop as a function of the room Temperature. Yet another Arduino, A new function "yetaarduino".

The Control measures the room temperature and sets the PWM Signal to the primary water loop circuit.

The Multiplying factor setting the change in Flow rate against the Temperature change will have to be found by experiment. with an initial setting of 1 lpm per degree C.

The Secondary water loop , on the other side of the Heat Exchanger remains , for the present under control of an oscillator.

ian

Posted by: @iantelescope

↑

@derek-m  @william1066

I now control of my Primary Water loop as a function of the room Temperature. Yet another Arduino, A new function "yetaarduino".

The Control measures the room temperature and sets the PWM Signal to the primary water loop circuit.

The Multiplying factor setting the change in Flow rate against the Temperature change will have to be found by experiment. with an initial setting of 1 lpm per degree C.

The Secondary water loop , on the other side of the Heat Exchanger remains , for the present under control of an oscillator.

ian

 

 

The normal method of controlling the indoor temperature would be by varying the LWT, in conjunction with changes made by WC. I suppose varying the flow rate may also work.

I seem to remember someone asking whether your heat exchanger is actually a buffer tank. Could you provide a photo?

Did you resolve the cycling issue?

@iancalderbank 

My Volumising tank  was originally designed  and selected by Samsung Dallium , Samsung's own service depot at Wigan .

My "installer's technical designer " then described the Samsung proposal to install the volumising tank as "ludicrous" and that "their own engineers would complete the job".

My "installer's technical designer "was then fired "for Technical incompetence!".

The Volumising tank was then "discovered under the former Technical designer's desk .....some two months later!

Two "Engineer's" then appeared to install the "Volumising tank " but "did not know where the tank was to be installed within the pipework.

The "Volumising tank " was designed by Samsung-Dallium to "allow the Heat pump to complete DE-icing on Cold Scottish nights".

The MCS also provided information about controlling  short Cycling.........with a different size of volumising tank in a different pipework location!

The "Volumising tank was fitted across the Primary ports of my Heat Exchanger .......total confusion!

The DE-icing works very well during winter.

The Short-Cycling on the primary water loop has also stopped.

However, the Secondary water loop, the radiator loop , is now hyper-cycling ..........

Presumably another volumising tank should be fitted to my secondary , radiator water loop?

ian