Posted by: @sonosppp

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[DJI] Its a firmware update and then you toggle it on.

When an export constraint can be adjusted by the householder, the DNOs regard that as if it will be set at the maximum export possible.

The DNOs are members of the Electrical Networks Association who define the rules and the tests which allow products to appear on the G98/G99 Approval database.

May I point out that there are Councils' Trading Standards staff reading this discussion.

If any of us post a technical definition such as DJI itself is a category 2, but sold as a category 1 then it would help enormously if you referenced the source you've used to make that statement.

There's a lot of useful expertise here on the Forum, which would be useful to Trading Standards as they assess what actions/policies they ought to be pursuing. We should make this as easy as possible for them. Their admin staff can't be expected to already know what all the definitions are.

I have some sympathy for manufacturers trying to negotiate regulatory nuances whilst producing products as cheap as the public expects. 

I also have some doubt about the validity of the regulatory differences and the enormous amount of skilled intellectual energy devoted to creating them, intellectual energy which could be used for more productive activities.

Nice thread.

It reminds me of a bunch of kids sitting around discussing what Santa will bring, 🙂

As far as that goes I never really grew up.

What can be sold is not really the problem, it's what will sell.

As far as I am aware there are no roads in the UK which allow a speed greater than 70 mph.

Doesn't stop cars with a top speed far in excess of this being sold.

Maybe that doesn't relate, I'm just bored waiting for Santa.

I saw on the Faceache page that earliest expected delivery is Sept 20th. 

How many do you reckon they can ship each day?

One more thing is this model only being launched in UK or across Europe

If it's the latter it will slow things down considerably.

Posted by: @blizzardgreen

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It reminds me of a bunch of kids sitting around discussing what Santa will bring,

I confess to guilt.

I have been trying for a couple of years to make the business case for a home battery work.  I can't at current pricing.  Plug in will change the pricing landscape dramatically.

So I am waiting and hoping it becomes fully legal soon, and annoyed at our installation industry for slowing it's introduction with unsubstantiated safety 'concerns'.

I am particularly annoyed with the iet, of which I am a member and for which, until now, I had much respect.  They appear to have joined the circus instead of taking the moral, intellectual and technical high ground.

Posted by: @etchedpixels

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For a unit that's wired in and has battery sockets that remain live do you also need the grounding rod and changeover. I know you do if you feed power back into the house but I can't make head or tails of the situation if it's wired in and only providing power on sockets in the unit itself.

I noticed in the user manual for the 2000 model, it says it must be plugged into an earthed socket or grounded to an earth rod, there is a connection on the body. I think I saw mention of that in the 3000 manual as well.

If it wasn't for the fact that the 2000 doesn't have a LAN connection I'd be tempted to go for one with 2 add on batteries instead of the 3000 with one.

Posted by: @etchedpixels

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Posted by: @etchedpixels

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For a unit that's wired in and has battery sockets that remain live do you also need the grounding rod and changeover. I know you do if you feed power back into the house but I can't make head or tails of the situation if it's wired in and only providing power on sockets in the unit itself.

I can't see why you would provided the disconnect on grid failure works and, when operating off grid, the unit has whatever built in protection ups devices have.

If the grid is present then so is grid earth. 

If the unit doesn't feed back to the house electrics when grid is not present, then the only discharge (when there is a risk that grid earth is not present) is through the sockets on the unit.  This is exactly the same as a ups, which needs neither an earthing rod nor a changeover.

However if it does feed back to the House electrics on grid failure then you certainly do need an earthing rod and changeover, and such an arrangement will need professional installation now and for the foreseeable future.   It would (quite rightly) be unlawful to connect without the changeover facility, because of the risk to linesmen.

Posted by: @jamespa

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If the grid is present then so is grid earth.

James and I don't agree on this point.

See my earlier comment about the earth on a TN-C(S) supply to the house.

Posted by: @transparent

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Posted by: @jamespa

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If the grid is present then so is grid earth.

 

James and I don't agree on this point.

See my earlier comment about the earth on a TN-C(S) supply to the house.

Having re-read your post 3 times I now understand what you are saying (I think).  We don't actually disagree, because I don't have an opinion on the matter - although I admit that my text implies that I do.  As I understand it you saying that when grid is present, grid earth may not be due to grid faults.  If that is the case then the presence or absence of a battery is not the determinant of whether an earth rod is needed or not, essentially you are arguing that all properties need one.

That is fair enough, but it would help if you don't conflate it with what precautions an individual needs to take as a direct consequence of that individual introducing a battery.  Conflating it this way merely confuses everyone, including me.  Such a statement belongs IMHO, if you wish to make it (and fair enough if you do) in another thread dedicated (for example) to recommended upgrades to electrical installations which are fully compliant with current regulations.

I accept that my statement didn't take into account the possibility that our houses are anyway unsafe because of failed grid earths, and will therefore recast it thus:

I can't see why you would [need an earth rod and changeover] solely as a result of introducing a battery as you describe, provided the disconnect on grid failure works and, when operating off grid, the unit has whatever built in protection ups devices have:

If the grid is present then your level of protection (with or without a local earth rod) is the same as it would be if you did not have a battery in circuit.  Some would advise that, to achieve an adequate level of protection, all houses should be (retro-)fitted with an earth rod, irrespective of whether a battery is present or not, however this is not currently a requirement. 

If the unit doesn't feed back to the house electrics when grid is not present, then the only discharge (when there is a risk that grid earth is not present) is through the sockets on the unit.  This is exactly the same as a ups, which needs neither an earthing rod nor a changeover.

However if it does feed back to the House electrics on grid failure then you certainly do need an earthing rod and changeover, and such an arrangement will need professional installation now and for the foreseeable future.   It would (quite rightly) be unlawful to connect without the changeover facility, because of the risk to linesmen.

Hopefully we can agree on that.

Posted by: @transparent

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Posted by: @sonosppp

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[DJI] Its a firmware update and then you toggle it on.

When an export constraint can be adjusted by the householder, the DNOs regard that as if it will be set at the maximum export possible.

The DNOs are members of the Electrical Networks Association who define the rules and the tests which allow products to appear on the G98/G99 Approval database.

And therein lies the issue, and the point I was trying to make earlier in the thread - that regulatory approval may not be possible for products such as those described herein, but may be restricted to 'plug-in' batteries that are hard limited to an 800W inverter with up to 2000W of connected solar (over-panelling) permitted (4 x 500W panels on 4 MPPTs).

We will just have to wait and see. I'm sure the battery industry is busy lobbying the government at present.

Posted by: @jamespa

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As I understand it you saying that when grid is present, grid earth may not be due to grid faults.  If that is the case then the presence or absence of a battery is not the determinant of whether an earth rod is needed or not, essentially you are arguing that all properties need one.

Yes indeed,

The grid earth may not be effective due to a broken neutral.

PME means that there might be other earth-points along the supply cable, but they may not present an impedance low enough to ensure that a fuse will blow.

The issue becomes significant when we start installing storage batteries which can supply power during a grid outage.

I need time to consider whether all properties should have an earth connection. That's a point I'd like to raise with a DNO engineer.

Posted by: @transparent

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Posted by: @jamespa

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As I understand it you saying that when grid is present, grid earth may not be due to grid faults.  If that is the case then the presence or absence of a battery is not the determinant of whether an earth rod is needed or not, essentially you are arguing that all properties need one.

Yes indeed,

The grid earth may not be effective due to a broken neutral.

PME means that there might be other earth-points along the supply cable, but they may not present an impedance low enough to ensure that a fuse will blow.

The issue becomes significant when we start installing storage batteries which can supply power during a grid outage.

I need time to consider whether all properties should have an earth connection. That's a point I'd like to raise with a DNO engineer.

Great.

Once you have please can you start a new thread to discuss.  Its clear that people are struggling to understand the requirements of various battery scenarios.  This includes me, and I could, if I chose (which I dont), put 'FIET' after my name.  To help people with this we need to keep this thread confined to what Indevolt (and similar) batteries can do and what the customer must (or does not have to) do if they get one.  

Posted by: @old_scientist

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Posted by: @transparent

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Posted by: @sonosppp

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[DJI] Its a firmware update and then you toggle it on.

When an export constraint can be adjusted by the householder, the DNOs regard that as if it will be set at the maximum export possible.

The DNOs are members of the Electrical Networks Association who define the rules and the tests which allow products to appear on the G98/G99 Approval database.

And therein lies the issue, and the point I was trying to make earlier in the thread - that regulatory approval may not be possible for products such as those described herein, but may be restricted to 'plug-in' batteries that are hard limited to an 800W inverter with up to 2000W of connected solar (over-panelling) permitted (4 x 500W panels on 4 MPPTs).

We will just have to wait and see. I'm sure the battery industry is busy lobbying the government at present.

 

 

'hard limited' could be in 'admin' password protected software, accessible only by the manufacturer, firmware, a set of DIP switches, or the value of a resistor.  Im sure the producers of such equipment will find a way to satisfy the letter of the regulations.