Posted by: @derek-m

Posted by: @editor

@rusty, we just filmed our first impressions video today about using HVO. So far, it's been really good.

You've raised some excellent points – we're on the trial for six months and are dealing directly with OFTEC on this one, so I'll try and get some answers on the use of hydrogen in its production. I think there are a going to be a lot of loopholes surrounding oil boilers for off-grid properties but I'll try and get answer on this one too.

I think you will find that the Hydro actually refers to water rather than Hydrogen.

@derek-m

Indeed, Hydro refers to water, but according to this, hydroprocessing refers to a process using hydrogen in a two stage process: hydrotreating followed by hydrocracking all at high temperature:

https://www.etipbioenergy.eu/value-chains/conversion-technologies/conventional-technologies/hydrotreatment-to-hvo

Confusing terminology, well, I’m confused.

Although the deoxygenation stage does produce H2O as a byproduct.

From farmers weekly:

“HVO stands for hydrogenated or hydrotreated vegetable oil. It is made by reacting vegetable or other oils with hydrogen at high temperature and pressure.

The process itself is fairly energy intensive and currently the hydrogen comes from natural gas. In future it might come from biogas or via electrolysis.”

Although that’s from an advertising feature.

perhaps Mars can get a statement on the process from OFTEC?

Thanks for all the help and advice to all who contribute, keep it up.

Merry Xmas and “warm” wishes for the new year.

@rusty Thanks Rusty,

I stand corrected. I should have done more research rather than jump to conclusions.

The production of HVO may not be as environmentally friendly as headlines state. At present blue hydrogen is used which is carbon-intensive to produce. Although using waste oils may be carbon neutral this type of oil is a finite source that may rely on vegetable oil production which can be damaging to the environment. Palm oil production is an example. To produce green hydrogen which is energy intense will rely on excess green energy which is not yet available for the hydrogen volumes needed. Research is also going into using hydrogen for vehicles, gas boilers, and energy storage makes you wonder how much green energy we are going to need to meet that demand. Hydrogen production takes 4kw of energy to provide 3kw of Hydrogen energy, which makes hydrogen inefficient for heating and potentially very expensive. I suspect hydrogen production will go into providing fuel for vehicles first before any real investment for heating. When you consider the timelines involved, hydrogen for heating in massive volumes is not going to happen within the next 15 years which makes any investment in new boilers questionable. Another point is using HVO in diesel cars would be more beneficial than using it for heating.  

@prjohn, there is a lot to consider about HVO as you've correctly pointed out. The HVO used in the EU (and UK) doesn't have palm oil and is supposedly only made from waste cooking oil and fat which is difficult to get rid of. Up until 2008 or 2009 they were actually putting waste fat this into animal feed which is pretty disgusting given that the meat was then reentering the human for chain, so at least this is a good way to dispose of that waste. 

The hydrogen used in the process (I'll ask OFTEC to confirm this) may not be green, but I still think it's better than burning kerosene. This isn't a mainstream fuel that should be used by everyone but I think it's a decent alternative for properties that are off the grid and that can't afford to get other renewables (like heat pumps) in to help lower their carbon footprint. Even our heat pumps are heavily leaning on gas at the moment, so they're not fully green either. 

Here are our first thoughts about HVO. So far it’s been a good experience and we have a growing list of questions, and others have been raised here too, that we’ll get answers to from OFTEC and include in our updates.

I am very disappointed by this video. 
Your comments seem to go against everything this site stands for. My reasoning:

- you talk about insulation in the vid. Fabric first and insulation is a key tenet of any eco initiative. Whether gas, oil or HP

- have you investigated the process by which HVO is manufactured - the energy required and the environmental impact?  You are after all still burning stuff, so CO2 is generated so your carbon footprint is increased

- you mention the cost of HVO and the cost of electric. I feel it would be better to transfer taxation away from electric, so everyone benefits and encourages green heating and EVs, rather than away from HVO which only impacts 1m people 

- I think you over stated the costs of an ASHP to make your HVO point

- having a bivalent system leads to higher cost as you have to maintain and service two systems. 
- 8C seems a very high switch over temperature. When I had investigated keeping my oil boiler they discussed an 80/20 ASHP/oil boiler operation. Is this your plan?

- the UK has done a lot to reduce the carbon footprint of its electric generation. More to do with wind farms, battery storage, tidal and solar to reduce gas usage. 

We’ve been running our air source heat pump alongside our boiler that’s been using HVO (hydrotreated vegetable oil) since December and we’ve crunched some numbers to see if our heating is still green: https://myhomefarm.co.uk/our-bivalent-heat-pump-and-hvo-biofuel-are-we-still-green

@julianc, thank you for your honest comments. As you know we are extremely pro heat pumps and renewables, but consumers need more options. Many of your points have been addressed in the post above which I was also thinking about.

I don’t believe we overstated the installation costs. We paid £16,000 three years ago and our system today would be pushing 20k. With the £5,000 grant homeowners would have to pay £15,000. That figure would drop to £5000-£10,000 of their own money for smaller systems. Looking around where we live, only a small proportion of people would spend that. 

There are 1.5 million off grid homes in the UK. HVO derived from waste cooking oil and fat has a verified carbon emission factor of 0.036kg/kWh, compared to 0.298kg/kWh for kerosene. It’s a simple solution to significantly reduce the CO2 impact of 1.5 million homes without any work or investment. Yes, we’re still burning stuff, but the goal is to keep reducing CO2 emissions.

I’ve also been shocked by how ungreen the electricity supply is in the UK when the wind stops blowing. I’ve covered two sample days in my post above for our area and it’s not very comforting. The UK has done a lot, but we’ve got a long way to go.

@editor Your comments and article raise many questions, especially on costs and sustainability. It is frightening that prices for electricity are being talked about in the region of 30p+ but we are also talking about HVO at over a £1/L and the possibility if it happens hydrogen, which will be very expensive. It doesn't bode well for future energy costs. In Scotland, we have just shut down Hunterson B nuclear power station that has resulted in an increase in gas usage. This has been planned for some time, but no long-term planning for replacement was done, which resulted in a shortfall of "green" energy. The position we are in now could have been largely avoided if warnings had been listened to, this has been government choice. 

I am posting a link that gives a good analysis of the energy and the grid within the UK. The article does have a political purpose but doesn't distract from the information within and I hope readers will read the article as information only with regards to energy in the UK. If the admin feels the article is inappropriate because of the political agenda please remove it. My intent is to inform and not to cause political discourse.

https://newsnet.scot/news-analysis/is-england-running-out-of-natural-gas/

@prjohn, energy costs are worrying – I'll read this article tonight when I get a chance. Everything these days is politicised. 

Hi @prjohn

I suppose this article highlights a problem that has been coming for some time.

I can vaguely remember when electricity generation in the UK was the responsibility of the Central Electricity Generating Board, whose executives were professional trained Engineers with a primary remit of 'keep the lights on' in the most economic manner. They had a 5 year and a 10 year plan.

Over the past 30 years or so since privatisation of the electricity industry, we are now in the situation where the electricity supply industry is controlled by boards of directors, often not located in the UK, whose primary remit is to maximise profits for the benefit of their shareholders, and to ensure that they receive their large bonus cheques at the end if the year. As far as keeping the lights on in the most economic manner is concerned, I doubt they have a 5 minute plan.

BEIS may put forward white papers of how they are going to develop renewable energy, but at the end of the day they will still have to bribe the various companies with subsidies, to get them to build the wind farms and solar farms. It is my understanding that at the moment subsidies are only available for the planning and construction of wind farms further out in the North Sea. I bet you cannot guess where all the new wind farms are being built?

As far as the author's statement within the article about Scotland being almost self sufficient in renewable energy is concerned, it may well be true. What he failed to mention is that many of those wind farms will have been highly subsidised by UK consumers, not just Scottish ones.

@editor thanks Mars. Can you share the source of “verified carbon emissions factor”. I don’t know what that means. Does it take into account the energy required to create the H2 to hydrogenate the veg oil?  I struggle with the concept of this being a “green fuel” because of all the chemical processes required to make it. I buy my electric from Octopus who are a 100% green electric supplier. If we all purchased green electric then it would increase demand and drive the market to install more. Thus we buy less gas and fossil fuels. A positive circle.
I will look at buying my energy from Ripple, and be a part owner of a wind turbine to drive my carbon footprint down.