Thanks.

As it happens my local plumber is fantastic. We were talking about heat pumps when he last serviced my boiler. He was quite clued up but I suspect too near retirement to change his business. The son who works with him might I suppose.

I did ask if he wanted to buy my old boiler when replaced as he's known it from new. Not allowed apparently. He'd like it for spares though. Unfortunately MCS insist they're 'recycled'.

Posted by: @springswood

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Thanks.

As it happens my local plumber is fantastic. We were talking about heat pumps when he last serviced my boiler. He was quite clued up but I suspect too near retirement to change his business. The son who works with him might I suppose.

I did ask if he wanted to buy my old boiler when replaced as he's known it from new. Not allowed apparently. He'd like it for spares though. Unfortunately MCS insist they're 'recycled'.

Thats correct, taking your boiler out and fitting it somewhere else is not seen as taking one more boiler system off the gas grid as it will be back on the grid, I get that it might not make sense as were thats second hand boiler would have gone its likely a new boiler will go, but this is also to do with the boiler sales fines, if it gets fitted somewhere else the manufacturers dose not sell a new one which has a kind of tax levy.  

@majordennisbloodnok 

I understand the EPC template is being reviewed (and perhaps the process as well). If missing data etc is added to it it could fulfill the purpose of the heat loss. 

I would not be as harsh on the EPC assessors and it seems to me many do heat loss surveys as well.

Still, our example may not be atypical. We had an EPC done after the last upgrades. Whenever ASHP installers use it for an initial estimate, they calculate a heat loss between 6.1 and 7.4kw (-2C). The heat loss survey we had arrived at was 5.1kw at -2C, in line with what the half hourly gas usage indicates. The consequence of being over 7 is to place our home in the larger size heatpump category (eroding some of the benefit of insulation). 

Posted by: @batpred

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@majordennisbloodnok 

I understand the EPC template is being reviewed (and perhaps the process as well). If missing data etc is added to it it could fulfill the purpose of the heat loss. 

I would not be as harsh on the EPC assessors and it seems to me many do heat loss surveys as well.

Still, our example may not be atypical. We had an EPC done after the last upgrades. Whenever ASHP installers use it for an initial estimate, they calculate a heat loss between 6.1 and 7.4kw (-2C). The heat loss survey we had arrived at was 5.1kw at -2C, in line with what the half hourly gas usage indicates. The consequence of being over 7 is to place our home in the larger size heatpump category (eroding some of the benefit of insulation). 

@batpred, a review of the EPC template would be a good thing, but I'm less concerned about what's supposed to be captured in the survey as much as what's captured in practice.

I agree there are plenty of EPC assessors who do a good job; my last EPC is the result of one of those. However, the variation in quality between surveys is woeful and so there are far too many EPCs that don't stand up to an even cursory comparison with reality. That uncertainty is what makes all EPCs - good and bad - impossible to rely on for heat pump system design purposes. If an acceptable level of consistency could be applied across all assessors, the template review you mentioned would probably help a lot.

The current EPC process isn't fit for purpose but to be fair it was supposed to be nothing more than the appliance efficiency sticker for houses as part of HIPS, which the RICS at the time and Cameron together then wrecked so surveyors still get paid multiple times per house. The new EPC process is supposed to make it rather more aligned to reality.

I agree they are a joke - the one for the house we are currently rennovating said it was rendered solid stone walls, and in fact it's cavity walled brick but there's no easy way for a tickbox form filler to figure this out on the property in question so they guessed.

Not surprised about the MCS on boilers, they still to this day won't allow second hand solar panels to be fitted in an MCS compliant install, which would be fine if the energy companies actually followed the rules on SEG payments instead of demanding MCS. Does mean they are scrapping perfectly good boilers which might have been used to upgrade old boilers that are otherwise staying in use as the old ones. 

A big part of the problem IMHO is that most UK houses never had a built in heating system prior to central heating. Going gas fires to central heating or coal to central heating wasn't as disruptive as you didn't have to rip one our for the other and bits of your heating failed independently. So apart from fringe cases this is the first time. Boiler to boiler works because you just look at the size installed last time and shove in the same or bigger. Heatpump ought to be similar once you get it correctly installed the first time.

Good points @etchedpixels 

And it occurred to me that the trust thing with installers is partly because I don't know anyone with a heat pump. In my immediate neighbourhood of around 100 houses there are no heat pumps and, as far as I know, 100 gas boilers. Mine is only the 2nd EV.