@editor thanks for being so open about all this.  All of us like to be open about our successes, but it takes courage to admit when things have gone wrong.  I’m sure the combination of your optimism, determination to make it work and an excellent engineering team will win through in the end.

Posted by: @editor

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It has also clarified our next step: in spring we’ll be undertaking a full heat pump retrofix project. The goal is to create a proper blueprint for reconfiguring a system with microbore, long pipe runs and a large footprint. We want to show homeowners and installers not only what bad looks like, but what good looks like, and how thoughtful design, planning and calculation make all the differen

I congratulate you on your determinism and, lihe @Grahamf an sure that this plus some robust engineering will win through.

I don't know much about your house but it sound like its quite atypical of the UK housing stock, so its going to be interesting and instructive to see how far from the very simple model that (I suspect and believe) applies to the vast majority of houses must, in practice, be varied for yours. This might establish some 'bookends'.  At one end (and applying to the the vast majority of houses) just properly sized heatpump, diverter valve and UVC (+ necessary grot filters and antifreeze valves) with no external controls and, at the other end - what?  It also looks like, from what you have said so far, you are going to be looking at the latest technologies whihc will also be instructive.

The challenge remains to get the industry and/or householders to take notice in volume.  If we could also crack that there would be far fewer poor installs and the chancers in the industry would either have to get their act together or go out of business.

Thanks Graham and James.

Renewable Heating Hub was born out of my own frustration with a subpar installation nearly seven years ago, and since then we’ve worked hard to promote heat pumps and the wider electrification of heating despite this because I believe in the tech. That mission has, however, always weighed heavily, because it felt important to show that even when a system is bodged, it can be fixed. Sadly, our recent attempt to demonstrate that went badly wrong, and it’s left us in an embarrassing situation. But hiding or glossing over it would feel disingenuous and would be a disservice to homeowners looking at heat pumps as a replacement to their boilers.

The truth is that homeowners need to go into heat pump installations fully prepared and with their eyes wide open. If they don’t, they’re gambling unnecessarily because while there are some very good installers, there are also plenty of bad ones. The only way to improve installation standards is to be brave enough to highlight the bad while praising the good.

As you say James, our property is far from typical, but it's not an impossible project. On one end of the spectrum you have relatively simple homes where a correctly sized heat pump, diverter valve and cylinder can do the job reliably, but even those systems are regularly botched. On the other end, you have complex properties with microbore, long pipe runs and a larger footprint, and that requires proper design, proper planning and a willingness to apply the maths. Documenting that journey openly is the only way we can create useful “bookends” for both homeowners and installers to learn from.

I remain optimistic that with the right team, and with the kind of professionalism we’ve recently experienced from Richard and Chas, we can turn this into something positive. If that means showing the hard parts as well as the success, then so be it.

@editor Mars, it is really great that you have set up this forum for discussion and learning.  Unfortunately, we always learn more from our mistakes than from what goes well.  The key is to learn the lessons and put processes and guidelines in place to avoid them in the future, but that is very hard to do in practice - especially in a world full of small independent installers and millions of individual customers.

I must admit that I was nervous about our heat pump installation.  There were so many horror stories and bad news always travels further than good news.  My wife was very trusting as always, but that added a fear that I might let her and myself down with our project.  It is early days, but so far it is going remarkably well.  Your help by introducing me to a good installer was a major factor in this, so thank you.

Our house has two out of the three challenging characteristics that you mention:

1. Large footprint of 350m2 spread over two floors. It is a 5 bedroom detached house with 30 radiators.
2. Long pipe runs: at least 20m primary circuit from the heat pump to the downstairs radiators on both flow and return. 

We are fortunate that we have access under the house floor and over the garage ceiling for the primary pipework.  The original gas system had 35mm pipes on the space heating primaries and 28mm on the hot water.  We have extended the 35mm pipework up to and across the ceiling of the double garage and down to the heat pump.  All but one of the radiators have 15mm pipes.

Even at 6C outside, the flow temperature has stayed below 31C and delta T between heat pump flow and return is only 2.7C.  No doubt these numbers will increase as the weather gets colder, but it is a very positive start.

It sounds as though your house has more physical constraints, but hopefully you will find a way around them without ripping it to pieces! 

Posted by: @editor

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As you say James, our property is far from typical, but it's not an impossible project.

Absolutely

Posted by: @editor

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On one end of the spectrum you have relatively simple homes where a correctly sized heat pump, diverter valve and cylinder can do the job reliably, but even those systems are regularly botched.

... which, TBH, is the thing I find most frustrating.  I completely get that a (possibly) complex job, like yours, needs a designer with particularly well honed skills, and that these are likely to be few and far between.  What I cant accept is the botching of the relatively simple homes, for what we know from this forum are entirely predictable reasons, Its just inexcusable. 

The industry appears to have a death wish that I fear is slowly being embedded to the detriment of all of us.

Is there any way to use next year's installer show, informed by your experience and the material we have here, to challenge the industry to step up.  It seems to me to be the obvious forum, public enough to make an impact but at the same time closed enough that the truth can be outed.

Posted by: @grahamf

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I must admit that I was nervous about our heat pump installation.  There were so many horror stories and bad news always travels further than good news.  My wife was very trusting as always, but that added a fear that I might let her and myself down with our project.

This is spot on, we felt and feel the same.

We are not even a month in and so far it all seems good but we both can't wait to get to March without problems.

Posted by: @jamespa

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Is there any way to use next year's installer show, informed by your experience and the material we have here, to challenge the industry to step up.

We could ask MCS to pay for a RHH Forum Stand next to theirs.

If the Moderator Team plus a few others could staff that stand for the duration of the Show, we could spread the 'right message' far and wide.

Can anyone see a flaw in that proposal?

Posted by: @transparent

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Posted by: @jamespa

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Is there any way to use next year's installer show, informed by your experience and the material we have here, to challenge the industry to step up.

We could ask MCS to pay for a RHH Forum Stand next to theirs.

If the Moderator Team plus a few others could staff that stand for the duration of the Show, we could spread the 'right message' far and wide.

Can anyone see a flaw in that proposal?

I doubt MCS will pay but an adjacent or even just nearby stand might be possible by another route - @editor will know - I think the 'organisation' stands were collected together in a group last year because they were of similar small size. 

The idea of an RHH stand staffed by moderators is appealing because, as you say, we would get to have a fair few conversations.  I would certainly be willing to do this (subject to dates), I went last year and enjoyed the experience (sad!).

A presentation/panel discussion in addition would be even better.  Why not - its a voice of the consumer which should matter.  Perhaps the title could be provocative eg 'Does the Heat Pump industry have a death wish and what can it do about it - a consumer viewpoint', or even stronger 'The heat pump industry is toast unless it changes radically - the consumer viewpoint'.  These guys, including the good ones IMHO, need seriously shaking out of their complacency.  When government grants cease, which might well be as little as 3.5 years hence, where will they be?

As always I acknowledge that there are many, many good guys out there, but the evidence from this forum and the 'popular' reaction if heat pumps are discussed in public shows that there are still a fair number of bad ones who deliver sub par installations for entirely predictable reasons and are significantly (and unfairly) harming the reputation.  They need to be drummed out ASAP, or homeowners given the tools to reject them.

Posted by: @transparent

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Posted by: @jamespa

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Is there any way to use next year's installer show, informed by your experience and the material we have here, to challenge the industry to step up.

We could ask MCS to pay for a RHH Forum Stand next to theirs.

If the Moderator Team plus a few others could staff that stand for the duration of the Show, we could spread the 'right message' far and wide.

Can anyone see a flaw in that proposal?

That could certainly cause a degree of underlying friction and, as we all know, friction makes heat. This would, therefore result in a textbook demonstration of under-flaw heating.

I have a certain amount of "exhibition equipment"  but an exhibition stand doesn't come cheap!

We'd really need a mock-up of a heat-pump installation so that we demonstrate faults and installation short-comings.

Given the proposals from DESNZ that they intend launching a mechanism whereby heat-pumps could be turned off remotely, perhaps that ought to be demonstrated too.
We could have a row of ASHPs, which we simultaneously turn back on, and a mains monitor which shows the subsequent voltage dip.

Of course, there's the risk that other stands with inverters operating on the same phase will then go off-line.

The ensuing havoc would provide a realistic example of the potential for a national black-out.

Would that gain us some media attention perhaps?

@transparent The supply of such a high capacity of power on an exhibition stand would not come cheap either! Shocking! Toodles.

@transparent I love the depiction of chaos, keep up the good work.

I suppose a firewall that leaves one HP remaining operational would also be "educational".