Posted by: @transparent

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We'd really need a mock-up of a heat-pump installation so that we demonstrate faults and installation short-comings.

I have access to a cardboard heat pump, full sized but obviously not functional.  It's a slightly downsized Vaillant 7kW machine.

That said I think we need to have a singular focus on the damage that the heat pump industry is doing to its own market and (for consumers) how to differentiate the chaff from the good guys.  Until that message gets out and the industry or the public take action we have achieved a very valuable (but in the big scheme of things small) amount with the limited audience we have,  but nowhere near enough to 'move the dial' (as @editor likes to say)

Posted by: @toodles

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The supply of such a high capacity of power on an exhibition stand would not come cheap either!

We'd only need it for a few minutes at a time.

Posted by: @scalextrix

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I suppose a firewall that leaves one HP remaining operational would also be "educational".

I already have sufficient (portable) battery capacity and a collection of off-grid inverters which would leave 'our' stand live 😉 

You'd be surprised how little 'high power' demand you can put onto the local LV grid to create quite substantial voltage dips.

This shows the effect of adding one storage battery (4.2kW for 30mins) and one EV charger (3.6kW for an hour) to the grid during an Octopus Free Electricity hour.

I included that diagram in a submission to DESNZ a couple of weeks ago. 😆 

Posted by: @jamespa

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I have access to a cardboard heat pump

That's a strategy which DESNZ hasn't considered.

The advantage of a cardboard ASHP is that you can at least obtain heat by setting fire to it on the living room floor when there's a widespread blackout.

More seriously, it's possible to create a very attractive mock-up demonstration using strings of 'pixel LEDs' to mimic flows of electricity and water.

Posted by: @jamespa

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Is there any way to use next year's installer show, informed by your experience and the material we have here, to challenge the industry to step up.  It seems to me to be the obvious forum, public enough to make an impact but at the same time closed enough that the truth can be outed

I can definitely rally support and we can make plenty of noise, but this part of the industry feels like an immovable object. It’s going to take more than pressure alone to bring about real change. That’s why I keep coming back to the legal route. If organisations like MCS, HIES, RECC, the cert bodies (and even some of the bigger installers) start losing cases and paying out serious settlements, we’d see standards improve almost overnight. That’s the pressure point. I’ve already identified a potential firm that looks like a good fit, and I’ll be sounding them out next week.

Posted by: @transparent

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We could ask MCS to pay for a RHH Forum Stand next to theirs.

Massively unlikely 😂 

One of the funniest moments for me at Installer this year came right as I’d arrived. I was in the lobby chatting to Damon Blakemore when I spotted Ian Rippin (Mr. MCS himself) striding past with purpose. Given our heated exchanges over email and DM this year, I braced for a face-to-face. But when he clocked me just a few metres away, he suddenly found his shoes absolutely fascinating and pulled a sharp 90 degree turn to avoid me. Safe to say, MCS aren’t going to support anything we do.

That said, there’s a very real chance Flexi-Orb would be open to hosting us. If there’s interest, I’m happy to pitch it to them.

Posted by: @jamespa

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A presentation/panel discussion in addition would be even better.  Why not - its a voice of the consumer which should matter.  Perhaps the title could be provocative eg 'Does the Heat Pump industry have a death wish and what can it do about it - a consumer viewpoint', or even stronger 'The heat pump industry is toast unless it changes radically - the consumer viewpoint'.  These guys, including the good ones IMHO, need seriously shaking out of their complacency.  When government grants cease, which might well be as little as 3.5 years hence, where will they be?

I really like this angle… it’s perfect for Installer, because it speaks directly to installers whose livelihoods are on the line. In the new year I’ll speak to the guy who books the talks and panels, and we can shape this into a proper panel session.

The truth is, the industry is teetering. Yes, the anti-heat pump press amplify horror stories, but as @pirate-rich keeps reminding me, this isn’t just noise, it’s an epidemic. The current direction simply isn’t sustainable. Standards in design and installation are shocking, and things need to improve fast.

Look no further than Octopus rolling out systems designed and installed to run at 55C to save on costs, upgrades, insulation and disruption. That’s expensive to run, and it will come back to bite the industry hard. Cutting carbon from boilers has to go hand-in-hand with highly efficient systems. There’s little point in ripping out a boiler just to replace it with a heat pump that limps along at a SCOP barely above 2.

Posted by: @editor

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That said, there’s a very real chance Flexi-Orb would be open to hosting us. If there’s interest, I’m happy to pitch it to them.

From my perspective absolutely. 

@jamespa then I’ll try to make it happen. I won’t be around to assist much because I’d like interview every manufacturer at the show next year, but willing to coordinate everything. Let’s discuss this in the mods forum. I’ll make a new topic there now to plan and coordinate.

I see that Heat Geek have joined the race to the bottom today with their ZeroDisrupt launch that aims first cheaper, faster, less disruptive installs. I’m not sure the industry needs that. We need quality, not cheaper or faster… I really do not like where any of this is heading. 

Posted by: @editor

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I see that Heat Geek have joined the race to the bottom today with their ZeroDisrupt launch that aims first cheaper, faster, less disruptive installs. I’m not sure the industry needs that. We need quality, not cheaper or faster… I really do not like where any of this is heading. 

Actually I think we desparately need both, and the key to that is intelligent planning and thinking out of the box.  Far too frequently the 'solutions' proposed (judging from a combination of personal experience and what I see here) involved unnecessary new pipework, replacing perfectly good unvented cylinders, and even replacing more emitters than necessary because of oversizing.  This can be avoided if the industry stops painting by numbers and instead uses brains in the planning phase.  

I haven't yet looked at the detail of ZeroDisrupt but the concept of less disruptive installs is good IMHO provided it is accompanied by quality.  Retrofit installs should be as disruptive as they need to be to do a good job, but no more.  We aren't there yet and continuing to employ painting by numbers techniques exclusively wont get us there.

@jamespa, I’m semi onboard, but my issue with less disruption usually means no rad upgrades which equates to designing for higher flow temps, which results in much higher running costs. With current tariffs that are unlikely to come down significantly any time soon, that means people will pay less for an initial, less efficient install, but the haemorrhage financially on running costs.

Posted by: @editor

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@jamespa, I’m semi onboard, but my issue with less disruption usually means no rad upgrades which equates to designing for higher flow temps, which results in much higher running costs. With current tariffs that are unlikely to come down significantly any time soon, that means people will pay less for an initial, less efficient install, but the haemorrhage financially on running costs.

I fully understand that BUT, not everyone has access to infinite amounts of capital funds and rad upgrades can be done progressively, and very easily, as and when funds permit.  Its absolutely normal to trade immediate capital cost for long term running cost, people take out mortgages, lease cars, use credit cards all the time.  A mortgage ends up costing several times the purchase price of the house and heamorrages money, but nevertheless few people buy houses outright. 

For this reason I have for long argued that installers should offer a 'base' upgrade with optional add ons - and that the 'base' probably should be a design FT of 55 with the optional add on taking it to 50, 45 or even 40.  So long as the customer is clear what the trade offs are, that's entirely reasonable and fair, much more so than insisting on the absolute max upgrade from the start.  To the extent that Heat Geek (or anyone else) does that I fully support them.

As to Octopus I too have misgivings about their apparent reluctance to design for <50 (and apparent default to 55) BUT Octopus do a lot of instals and how many people with an Octopus install have been on here complaining?  The overall impression I get is that their customers are happy so they must be doing something right.  Personally I would far rather that its a sound install with radiators that could be upgraded later, than a poor install with a buffer tank, unnecessary controls and rubbish workmanship.  By the time you take into account the likelihood that heat loss is overestimated in a fair few cases, I'm guessing that quite a few Octopus instals designed for 50 end up working nearer 45 anyway.

So I think we should give installers, provided they are transparent, the benefit of the doubt if they offer a choice between a Mini and a Rolls Royce, provided that each is well built, functions according to the spec reasonably expected and is not deliberately crippled in a way that is entirely avoidable.