Posted by: @jeff

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It says the infra and boilers are ready in the pilot. The infra has been built and homes are being connected after Xmas. Safety reviews have been passed. The pilot includes offshore wind producing hydrogen. 

Hydrogen boilers for domestic use are entirely a fossil fuel industry con so far as I can understand it.  To produce green (ie carbon free) hydrogen you need to use electrolysis (ie electricity) with a conversion efficiency of about 70%.  If you used the same electricity to power a heat pump you have a conversion efficiency of 300%.  It simply doesn't make sense for domestic heating so far as I can see.

That's not to say hydrogen doesn't have a place, in energy storage and for applications where you need a very high energy density and high temperature applications, but never for domestic heating so far as I can see.

If someone can explain the economics differently Im prepared to change my mind.

Posted by: @robl

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A more joined up approach would be to somehow decommission gas in areas where the network would have been upgraded, offering heating replacement schemes (don’t ask me how it would work).  It seems to me that replacing old pipes now is doubling down on the wrong tech.

Or in areas where there is curtailment of renewables because the transmission network needs upgrading, suck up that energy close to source.

Of course there will be pensioners on the front page of The Daily Mail and it will be a big catastrophe, but change is rarely easy.

Posted by: @scalextrix

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Posted by: @robl

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A more joined up approach would be to somehow decommission gas in areas where the network would have been upgraded, offering heating replacement schemes (don’t ask me how it would work).  It seems to me that replacing old pipes now is doubling down on the wrong tech.

Or in areas where there is curtailment of renewables because the transmission network needs upgrading, suck up that energy close to source.

Of course there will be pensioners on the front page of The Daily Mail and it will be a big catastrophe, but change is rarely easy.

And therein lies the problem.  A higher proportion of pensioners vote than is the case for the general population.  

As you say change is rarely easy, democracy makes it more difficult!

Posted by: @jamespa

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Posted by: @scalextrix

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Posted by: @robl

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A more joined up approach would be to somehow decommission gas in areas where the network would have been upgraded, offering heating replacement schemes (don’t ask me how it would work).  It seems to me that replacing old pipes now is doubling down on the wrong tech.

Or in areas where there is curtailment of renewables because the transmission network needs upgrading, suck up that energy close to source.

Of course there will be pensioners on the front page of The Daily Mail and it will be a big catastrophe, but change is rarely easy.

And therein lies the problem.  A higher proportion of pensioners vote than is the case for the general population.  

As you say change is rarely easy, democracy makes it more difficult!

 

The idea of converting whole streets to heat pumps and decommissioning gas was discussed on an ovo forum a few years ago, the ovo position was they were not supportive given the need to give customers choice. It was a suggestion I raised in the group. I can't remember if @transparent was still on the ovo forum at the time. I don't know if the ovo position has changed. It is not an open forum. 

Posted by: @jamespa

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To produce green (ie carbon free) hydrogen you need to use electrolysis (ie electricity) with a conversion efficiency of about 70%.  If you used the same electricity to power a heat pump you have a conversion efficiency of 300%.  It simply doesn't make sense for domestic heating so far as I can see.

That's not to say hydrogen doesn't have a place, in energy storage and for applications where you need a very high energy density and high temperature applications, but never for domestic heating so far as I can see.

May I reference the Green Hydrogen production project occurring at Langage Business Park near Plymouth...

There are multiple way in which this green-hydrogen might be used

• the existing CCGT generation plant at Langage
• two mining/minerals companies in the area who have signed contracts to access the hydrogen
• the industrial park being built beside Langage, which is within the Plymouth Freeport zone

The Plymouth Freeport is booming, mainly as a consequence of innovation companies working on products which have dual-use military/civilian potential.

Waterside space is at a premium due to heavy investment from MOD into autonomous naval capability, both above and below the waves
and the National Drone Hub which has an 8000km² offshore test area in order to accelerate the flight certification process

Posted by: @scalextrix

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Or in areas where there is curtailment of renewables because the transmission network needs upgrading, suck up that energy close to source.

... which is indeed the case in Cornwall and the western half of Devon.

There is major over-supply to the distribution grid in the area, with the majority of the 33kV and 132kV routes being under voltage constraint or thermal overload.

Posted by: @transparent

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May I reference the Green Hydrogen production project occurring at Langage Business Park near Plymouth...

There are multiple way in which this green-hydrogen might be used

I know and thats what I said!.  My comment was

Posted by: @jamespa

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Hydrogen boilers for domestic use are entirely a fossil fuel industry con so far as I can understand it.  To produce green (ie carbon free) hydrogen you need to use electrolysis (ie electricity) with a conversion efficiency of about 70%.  If you used the same electricity to power a heat pump you have a conversion efficiency of 300%.  It simply doesn't make sense for domestic heating so far as I can see.

That's not to say hydrogen doesn't have a place, in energy storage and for applications where you need a very high energy density and high temperature applications, but never for domestic heating so far as I can see.

Do you have an argument against that?

Im very much not against green hydrogen, I'm for it.  Im just against the con that is hydrogen (or 'hydrogen-ready) domestic boilers (unless someone can tell me how it makes any sense)

Posted by: @jeff

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The idea of converting whole streets to heat pumps and decommissioning gas was discussed on an ovo forum a few years ago, the ovo position was they were not supportive given the need to give customers choice. It was a suggestion I raised in the group. I can't remember if @transparent was still on the ovo forum at the time.

I wasn't active on that Forum when Kensa's Heat the Streets initiative was introduced.

Their existing heat networks aren't shown on NESO's Heat Networks section of the Nations and Regions Context resources for future strategic energy planning.
I've filed a 'memo' to ask that the Kensa GSHP networks be added.

The strategy is bound to increase in popularity because installation is free to commercial housing developers.

I don't understand the suggestion that OVO was unsupportive because they wanted consumers to have choice.
Each house on the estate can decide whether to have a connection to the heat network or not.
How have OVO misunderstood that I wonder?

Posted by: @transparent

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Posted by: @transparent

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May I reference the Green Hydrogen production project occurring at Langage Business Park near Plymouth...

There are multiple way in which this green-hydrogen might be used

 

I know and thats what I said!.

And I'm agreeing with you !

... but I added links to some existing practical projects using green hydrogen.

I didn't want readers here to imagine that using hydrogen was some far-off idealistic dream.
It's already happening.

@transparent no I have not misunderstood

This wasn't to do with the scheme you mentioned.

This was a conversation around not giving customers a choice. Converting a whole area and decommissioning the gas network. 

I know about the scheme you mentioned. 

Posted by: @transparent

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And I'm agreeing with you !

... but I added links to some existing practical projects using green hydrogen.

I didn't want readers here to imagine that using hydrogen was some far-off idealistic dream.
It's already happening.

OK, perhaps you could have made that clear so that readers don't imagine that using hydrogen for domestic boilers is even faintly sensible (unless I am missing something which so far nobody here, nor in other places where I have made the same comment, has identified).

Posted by: @transparent

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I don't understand the suggestion that OVO was unsupportive because they wanted consumers to have choice.

Posted by: @jeff

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no I have not misunderstood

I hadn't intended to indicate that you'd misunderstood, but that OVO had.

Unfortunately I'm constrained by having to use text and a scattering of punctuation, which isn't the way my brain operates.

There are two 'hydrogen to the home' projects occurring in the Yorkshire gas supply area.

A Blended hydrogen trial is occurring in Gateshead with 600+ homers involved.

There's another area where the local authority were busy clearing streets of delapidated terraced houses with a view to running a hydrogen-only gas grid to the redeveloped area.
I can't find the reference to that at the moment.

Posted by: @jamespa

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perhaps you could have made that clear so that readers don't imagine that using hydrogen for domestic boilers is even faintly sensible!

Ditto.

My brain is struggling  to convert a spider-web diagram of concepts and news stories into the text-based constraints of the forum

Posted by: @transparent

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Posted by: @transparent

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I don't understand the suggestion that OVO was unsupportive because they wanted consumers to have choice.

Posted by: @jeff

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no I have not misunderstood

I hadn't intended to indicate that you'd misunderstood, but that OVO had.

Unfortunately I'm constrained by having to use text and a scattering of punctuation, which isn't the way my brain operates.

 

There are two 'hydrogen to the home' projects occurring in the Yorkshire gas supply area.

A Blended hydrogen trial is occurring in Gateshead with 600+ homers involved.

There's another area where the local authority were busy clearing streets of delapidated terraced houses with a view to running a hydrogen-only gas grid to the redeveloped area.
I can't find the reference to that at the moment.

Which is the sort of thing that scares me.  How can this ever be sensible/cost effective by comparison to fitting heat pumps, for the reasons set out above.  This is just a con by the fossil industry!  The fact that the Gateshead trial is adding just 2% Hydrogen seems like yet another confirmation (as if one were needed).