@judith Samsung - thinking back on my post about the research I did on the "Visit a Heat Pump" site, comparing Mars's pretty reasonable estimate of the proportion of brands in circulation vs the proportion of brands folk are happy to show off. 

Samsung (which are of course mainly Gen 6s) didn't come out well. Disproportionately few owners seem to want to sing the praises of their Samsung for whatever reasons.

Posted by: @elton

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@judith Samsung - thinking back on my post about the research I did on the "Visit a Heat Pump" site, comparing Mars's pretty reasonable estimate of the proportion of brands in circulation vs the proportion of brands folk are happy to show off. 

Samsung (which are of course mainly Gen 6s) didn't come out well. Disproportionately few owners seem to want to sing the praises of their Samsung for whatever reasons.

I was thinking of your analysis but I couldn’t recall who pointed it out and hence sorry I couldn’t give you credit. Sorry!

There have been other strings about more noise complaints in particular very “tuneful” (or harsh) from Samsungs too.

Just been looking at the vote, it is interesting that people have voted more for efficiency than almost anything else.

Why interesting?

Because nearly every heat pump on the market (R32 and R290) have almost the same CoP for like for like temperature. It's not the heat pump that makes an efficient system, it's the system design (low flow temperature) and operation (no thermostats opening closing big or small parts of the system), setbacks and having to run the system harder to catch up the next day. A heat pump, diverter valve, hot water cylinder, and a single zone (in nearly all cases) heating system is all you need. Correctly setup you can leave it to run all year with zero intervention.

@judith Thanks Judith. 

Yes, as well as Samsungs (Gen 6's) featuring more in noise issues than others, and not something folk want to seem to show off. Also a heat pump engineer I spoke to said that they tend to be noisier than others.

I'm pretty sure the latest (Gen 7) models are better.

I have a two-pronged theory about Gen 6's:

1. that Gen 6's do indeed have harsh tonality. No data has been published from Samsung for tonality (it isn't required) but government and CIEH reports/guidance on noise state tonality is key issue and there is a suggestion for an adjustment (punitive) included on MCS020, which would bring it in line with BS4142 (greater alignment between MCS020 & BS4142 being essential to avoid the Planning/Env Health grey zone).

I'd favour any heat pump that isn't supplied with tonality data having +3 to 6dB(A) added to the SWL for MCS020 - it is a recognised nuisance factor.

2. that the "The highest sound power level specified" for Gen 6's - declared in manufacturer info & used in MCS020 - is not the highest sound power level.

The Welsh Govt Ph2 report and DESNZ report (and others) calls out the issue of a lack of standardisation in figures declared - that suppliers can be under-declaring SWL noise levels by as much as +8dB(A). This is more likely if the dB(A) level declared on the ErP energy label is the same as the max SWL declared & used for MCS020 (see Page 14 DESNZ report& the Annex 51 report) and this is the case for eg the Samsung AE120 - the declared dB(A) is indeed the ErP label dB(A).

Just theories. Would like to hear if anyone feels these are valid or otherwise?

Just as a side note, I can see Visit a Heat Pump now has the numbers of brands on the site which is very helpful (on the right hand side of any search, and searching from any location will show all heat pumps registered on the site).

Total numbers on the site:

Mitsubishi 89

Daikin 82

Vaillant 71

LG 21

Samsung 19

Midea 18.

Samsung WELL under-represented.

Probably not unreasonable to say that Mitsubishi, Daikin and Vaillant owners are around 4x more likely to show their units off than Samsung owners. I do think it would be worth researching why.

@elton That’s very interesting and definitely worth delving into further. Just a general observation, I tend to see Mitsubishi, Daikin, Vaillant and Samsung as the most popular and commonly installed heat pumps in the UK. So, it is interesting to see Samsung lagging behind the others on "Visit a Heat Pump."

I’ve said this several times, but Samsung is dead to me as a brand based on our experiences with them, especially regarding our fridge, which honestly isn’t fit for purpose. Their customer service and attitude were awful. I wonder how much of that poor customer service extends to their heat pump installations and support.

@editor Yes. I would think it would be valuable for someone to have a serious look at this "is it Samsungs?" question. Could be potentially that they (or Gen 6's) are a weight around the ankles of national rollout, or maybe not. I think there's enough there to warrant research.

If it is verified that a disproportionate number of noise complaints and other heat pump gripes prominent in the media are more prominent in Samsungs then its something that can be fixed or worked around, rather than it acting as a drag chute on rollout, tarring all heat pumps with the same brush.

@editor @elton Er, guys correlation is not causation - in these two self-selecting public fora - visit a heat pump & open energy - the brands are meaningless. 

Even OE performance says more about the geekery and effective system design and maintenance than anything much about HP brand. 

I wouldn't draw any conclusions from them. 

@lucia I can't agree with that conclusion. Why can't a brand or model-based conclusion be made if the evidence stacks up? If there is an issue more prominent with one model or brand, that can quite easily be causation and correlation.

As for self-selecting fora, it is striking that so few Samsungs are present in a sample of 300+ units. Can't just be explained as irrelevant.

Correlation does not equal causation. Fundamental rule of data analysis. You can't repeat that line then argue it does, sorry. 😁

OE & Visit a Heatpump are fab resources but do not equal evidence by any valid definition of the word 'evidence'.

There is no 'evidence stacking up'. 

These things tell you nothing about brands. In fact one of the co-founders of Open Energy, Glyn Hudson, is a proud Samsung owner. That guy knows his stuff. 

There's also dozens of happy Samsung heat pump owners around the world showing off on YouTube. 

Self-selection is a huge problem for any kind of analysis. Whatever or wherever it is. 
No study of brands would be considered evidence without being undertaken under very similar conditions be that system design, installation or location. And even then you would have to have a randomised control group to actually make it valid. 

I literally stalked a guy called Matt on OE who had big problems with an over-sized Daikin. It wasn't a Daikin problem it was a system design problem. He had the HP replaced with a smaller one along with more/bigger radiators and he's now near the top of the Scops. I learned a lot from his journey but not too much about Daikin. 

I have often heard experts say that heat pump brands are more or less irrelevant with the important key factors being system design, installation and running. 

Posted by: @elton

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@lucia I can't agree with that conclusion. Why can't a brand or model-based conclusion be made if the evidence stacks up? If there is an issue more prominent with one model or brand, that can quite easily be causation and correlation.

As for self-selecting fora, it is striking that so few Samsungs are present in a sample of 300+ units. Can't just be explained as irrelevant.

Look for a Maxa heat pump you will not find one, you may find a Viessmann, but due to cost not many. But the Viessmann unit was made and designed by Maxa. I have one, it's runs well, doesn't produce much in the way of noise, has many variables you can change. It's performance is good.

But why would I want anyone I don't know coming around my house?

I agree @lucia drawing a conclusion from meaningless information in, rubbish out is a bit pointless.

Posted by: @lucia

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have often heard experts say that heat pump brands are more or less irrelevant with the important key factors being system design, installation and running. 

Can agree with that. Best ASHP ever made is limited but thermodynamics, so all are very similar performances wise. System design can be simple and efficient or not, that can change on every install. That is the variable.