@foggy, you are right in that it's a young industry and there is a shortage of experienced, knowledeable suppliers.  However, there shouldn't be such a variety of responses for the same set of circumstances.  Having said that there will be as many cowboys around as with any home improvements so you need to be careful. 

If you are willing to share a few more details about your house then we can respond better.  This is all on your EPC certificate.

• EPC rating and any recommendations for insulation
• Heat and HW annual kWh
• Construction/insulation details (walls, windows, etc.)
• size in m2

When the supplier said your house was unsuitable as it is, what reason did they give and what would have to be done to make it suitable? Because of the lower flow temperatures with an ASHP it's likely that some of your radiators and HW tank may need replacing if that's what they were getting at. As to the wall vs ground question, that may just be manufacturers' recommendations but they are normally on the ground. 

At the moment an ASHP is going to be more expensive to run than gas but your PV and batteries will help close the gap. 

Don't give up yet!

Kev

We had six MCS accredited installers quote us and the recommendations were all over the radar in terms of specs and pricing. We went down the ASHP route because we wanted to be sustainable and reduce our carbon footprint. Like most homeowners we new very little about what an ASHP entailed, but three years down the line I think that the industry has not progressed at all.

Just from the stories on this forum on the comments on our My Home Farm blog, installations are botched by MCS-accredited installers all the time. It has become very evident to me that MCS doesn't mean much, but that homeowners have to go down this route to get RHI payments. Sadly, accreditation does not directly translate to competence. I follow the subject closely, and every week, without fail, there are a few cases of a poorly designed, commissioned or installed ASHP in the UK, all done by MCS accredited installers. It's really, really poor, and it appears (from peoples' comments) that MCS don't care or take action when they receive complaints. 

Since learning more about ASHPs, I've been staggered to find out the units themselves in the UK are up to 50% more expensive than Europe. Installation costs in Norway are a third of what's charged in the UK, and mainland Europe is generally 50% cheaper. Homeowners in the UK are currently being greatly overcharged. When I asked one of the most reputable installers in the UK about this just last week, he conceded and admitted that manufacturers and installers in the UK are cashing in. He puts it down to installers hiding behind MCS accreditation costs and RHI government funding.

Bl**dy disgrace!

Posted by: @kev-m

@foggy, you are right in that it's a young industry and there is a shortage of experienced, knowledeable suppliers.  However, there shouldn't be such a variety of responses for the same set of circumstances.  Having said that there will be as many cowboys around as with any home improvements so you need to be careful. 

If you are willing to share a few more details about your house then we can respond better.  This is all on your EPC certificate.

• EPC rating and any recommendations for insulation
• Heat and HW annual kWh
• Construction/insulation details (walls, windows, etc.)
• size in m2

When the supplier said your house was unsuitable as it is, what reason did they give and what would have to be done to make it suitable? Because of the lower flow temperatures with an ASHP it's likely that some of your radiators and HW tank may need replacing if that's what they were getting at. As to the wall vs ground question, that may just be manufacturers' recommendations but they are normally on the ground. 

At the moment an ASHP is going to be more expensive to run than gas but your PV and batteries will help close the gap. 

Don't give up yet!

Kev

 

The EPC is a few years old, and the rating is D, but that was before I put in solar panels.

The house is brick with cavity wall insulation. 270mm loft insulation. Very old Double glazed windows

Heat 11513kWh HW 3141

Total floor area 122m2

The recommendations were Floor Insulation (Solid Floor).

The supplier who said the house was unsuitable gave me the impression that the technology was better suited to new build or renovation projects. As I have no wish to do anything other than to get my heating and hot water working again, I am not willing or able to carry out any major work on the house.

I think my house is reasonably well insulated, it doesn't feel really cold in the winter. I looked at my gas bills for the last 7 years, and I average about 10500 kWh a year, but that includes a gas hob. At current prices, that is about £350 a year. I am been quoted running costs of nearly £800. I don't care how sustainable it is, if this increase is what the average household in the UK is in for when they try to phase out gas boilers, then we are in for a shock

As for the government grant affecting prices, you just have to look to the EV market, and how the prices of some cars miraculously came down when the EV grant was lowered to £35000 a couple of months ago.

@foggy, I am not a heating engineer but from what you say, there is no reason why an ASHP won't work for you.  But the economics work in the favour of gas.  If you achieve a SCOP of around 2.5 (the minimum design figure to qualify for RHI payments), gas is 3p/kWh and electricity is 13p then 10000 kWh of heating will cost around £300 with gas and around £500 with an ASHP.  Actual numbers will vary and gas isn't 100% efficient but that's the sort of advantage gas has.  

If your EPC says 14,500 kWh (you'll need a new one that is less than 2 years old) you'll get about £7500 back over 7 years from RHI.  But ... to install an ASHP and all the other changes you'll need is likely to cost more than that.  However, your back boiler will be more expensive to replace than a standard one but the new one will be more efficient. Lots to think about! 

Going green is an expensive business and I agree with your observations about the effect of grants.  I'd like an EV but at the moment they are too expensive and (for me) range is a problem in all but the most expensive choices.  

I agree with the thoughts the industry does not help itself but I further feel this is caused by the government. In fact the Government both national and local are generally disjointed and unhelpful with things like planning permission for the air to air and big systems. Lots of hoops to jump through to do something the Government want us to do and the world needs us to do. 

There is a long way to go to get this industry up to standard both in training, costs and public confidence. Based upon the last 5 years a huge level of change is needed in many sectors of energy pricing, taxation and incentives. Many lessons can be learned however from other countries. The clean home grant of £4K is unlikely to scratch the surface as a replacement to RHI unless costs reduce and interest free loans are also provided. Also need a much better industry standard which works to  increase confidence and is actually effective. A long way to go. 

@foggy Intresting to see how they are hoping to fit ASHP  in rows of terraced houses.

The noise would be insane 😳

Hi Baz,

I suspect the vast majority of homes, that are on gas central heating, will eventually be encouraged to switch to Hydrogen, if it can be made available at a reasonable price.

I see H2 as a stop gap only. A bit like hybrid cars. 
When they talk about H2 boilers, it will only be at 20% H2. 80% CH4

So it only impacts a small % of CO2 emissions 

The last climate change committee reading I did explained that hydrogen would mostly be used in the colder parts of the country. It also explained for terraced houses and close compact properties like flats etc community heating pumps and other ventures could be used. Some of these such as HVO, landfill waste heating and community heat pumps are not only in development but some are now in a trial state. HVO and hydrogen have huge oil company’s behind them with more influence, cash flow and business sense than most if not all governments. The medium term future is not certain when it comes to home heating regardless what the government think.

@editor Hi Mars do you have any links that show European ASHPs are 50% cheaper than UK installations?  My research shows Daikin prices are similar Euro to GBP. It is difficult to compare like for like as they get called different product names. So I’m just comparing similar sized power units. 
When you add in all the components, design, buffer tank, h/w cylinder, I think the UK is very comparable to European installation