Joining the Renewable Heating Hub forums is completely free and only takes a minute. By registering you’ll be able to ask questions, join discussions, follow topics you’re interested in, bookmark useful threads and receive notifications when someone replies. Non-registered members also do not have access to our AI features. When choosing your username, please note that it cannot be changed later, so we recommend avoiding brand or product names. Before registering, please take a moment to read the Forum Rules & Terms of Use so we can keep the community helpful, respectful and informative for everyone. Thanks for joining!
Non standard houses with non standard owners
I’ve been hung up on this edict about heating rooms in the house because it is used to impose a life style on residents. I have been told that I must heat all the rooms in my house against my wishes, whether I like it or not!
Here is an example:
A six room house is supplied with a heat pump that is sized according to the heat loss calculations for all six rooms. If three of the radiators in those rooms are turned off it makes the heat pump oversized and inefficient. There is also a loss of heat through pipes which follow the loop through every room before returning to the heat pump.
When the water returns to the heat pump it has not shed the heat destined for the three rooms that are turned off and so it is at a higher temperature than it should be in a balanced system. So the pump recycles and wastes energy.
However, in the six room house, if the resident only wishes to heat three rooms and a heat pump is sized to supply the heat loss from those three rooms this problem is avoided. The pipe loop would not go to the three rooms that are not to be heated so no heat loss there. The heat pump would not detect a higher temperature return so no recycling.
I’m aware that the internal walls might leak a bit more heat into the unheated space than if it was heated but I doubt if it would be much. And if the walls turned out to be made of tissue paper, internal insulation would beef them up a bit.
The background is this: I do not heat my bedroom but sleep with the window open for many nights of the year. So in my house there is no point adding heat to rooms, or those connected to them, where it is all going to fly out of the window.
The insistence on heating all rooms produces heat loss calculations which listed heat loss for three rooms (a store room, utility room and junk room) which do not even have emitters and never intend to have them! The calculations then add even more to the total for the rooms that I do not want to heat and an enormous heat pump is offered up to cover it. The enormous device never gets called on to heat all that space and so is hugely inefficient.
I remember watching a heat geek video about the effects of unheated rooms and how it would impinge on efficiency as the flow temperature in other rooms would have to be higher, unless your bedroom has very good insulation in its walls and floor (assuming its upstairs).
House-3 bed partial stone bungalow, 5kW Samsung Gen 6 ASHP (Self install)
6.9 kWp of PV
5kWh DC coupled battery
Blog: https://thegreeningofrosecottage.weebly.com/
Heatpump Stats: http://heatpumpmonitor.org/system/view?id=60
What are the designers or installers reasons for not allowing you to do what you want other than its makes the system slightly inefficient?
AAC Group Ltd covering the Kent Area for design, supply and installation of ASHP systems, service and maintenance, diagnostics and repairs.
Professional installer. Book a one-to-one consultation for pre- and post-installation advice, troubleshooting and system optimisation.
@ashp-bobba I think the starting point was soaking up the patsy who qualified for the £10K grant in 2020 and then added more....
I have learned to fight my corner but I am intimidated by Heat Geeks who really seem to know what they are talking about but even they don't address the wishes of the resident about how much of their house they want to heat.
@bontwoody the non standard part of my house is that it is an old stone building with 600mm thick walls some of which are external but due to two extensions the old core is wrapped round with modern fabric, making quite a lot of internal walls 600mm thick too. I notice that when I turn on my electric blanket, perhaps two hours before bedtime, the room is noticeably warmer, not warm enough to sit in but warmer.
Posted by: @jswhiteThe insistence on heating all rooms produces heat loss calculations which listed heat loss for three rooms (a store room, utility room and junk room) which do not even have emitters and never intend to have them! The calculations then add even more to the total for the rooms that I do not want to heat and an enormous heat pump is offer up to cover it. The enormous device never gets called on to heat all that space and so is hugely inefficient.
Its not quite as simple as that
Unless the insulation between rooms is very good, or the insulation between the house and the outside world very bad, you will still lose nearly the same amount of heat from the house (which is what determines the amount of heat you must supply) whether you heat a room or not.
If you doubt this try this try this experiment on a cold day: Turn off the heating in the room(s) you dont want to heat. Turn on the heating in the other rooms. Leave for a few hours. Then go into the rooms you aren't heating and compare the temperature in them with the temperature outside. In most houses the 'unheated' rooms will be much closer in temperature to the temperature of the heated rooms than they are to the outside, which means that they are still losing heat to the outside at nearly the same rate as if they are heated.
Of course there are exceptions, long thin houses can be warm at one end and cold at the other, and if the insulation between rooms is very good and there is little air movement, then a sizable temperature differential can exist, but most houses aren't like that. The heat loss from the house will be 'correctly' calculated by setting the room temperature of the unheated rooms to the temperature that they will settle at. For most houses, because this is closer to the temperature of the heated rooms than it is to the OAT, its not going to 'save' much on the calculated loss.
In this circumstance the argument for actually heating the rooms, given that the temperature differentials are relatively small so the overall heat loss doesn't change much, is that more radiators = greater total emitter area = lower flow temperature = better efficiency. Heat geek do a worked example showing its (in the case they illustrate) actually cheaper to heat all rooms than to heat some, because the efficiency gains outweigh the saving on loss from leaving rooms unheated. Of course this is house dependent, but it shouldn't be dismissed as installers trying to max the size of a heat pump etc.
There is nothing to stop you, as a householder, turning down radiators in some rooms (eg bedrooms). The point is that, for most houses, its probably more efficient to heat them, albeit to a lower temperature, than to leave them unheated and rely on heat spilling from adjacent rooms. A proper heat loss template allows for this.
All that said there does appear to be a tendency for heat loss calculations to overestimate the required capacity, but its for different reasons. Many installers will make 'conservative' assumptions about the fabric construction 'for safety' and will also assume air change values which may be way in excess of the actual. They have also been known to 'double count'. My own house is a case in point. Two full three hour surveys, one of which I paid £300 for, came out with 16kW. I asked for the detail of the one I paid for and it turned out they had ignored fabric upgrades they couldn't see, even though Id made a point of telling the surveyor about them and confirming with him/her that they would be accounted for. Worse still they had counted loss from warm rooms to cooler rooms in the house total (without counting the gains). Correcting for these errors, but otherwise using MCS assumptions, gets to 10.5kW, 11kW tops. Fortunately I have 2 years of smart meter readings from my gas boiler which pretty much unequivocally show that the house loss is ~7.5kW, maybe a bit less, and that's how the heat pump has been sized. The difference can be accounted for by assuming ACH=0.5-0.8, instead of the default 2-3. Some more candid installers will admit that using a lower ACH than the default is probably a good call. All this is nothing to do with heating rooms or not, but it did lead to an oversizing by a factor of 2.
If you have any independent evidence of your heat loss then my advice is to use it, if only as a sense check. There are installers out there that will take notice!
4kW peak of solar PV since 2011; EV and a 1930s house which has been partially renovated to improve its efficiency. 7kW Vaillant heat pump.
@jswhite If you design the system to suit the whole house and then have TRV's at each rad you could run all the rooms you don't want to heat on low point just above frost protection only which would be 16 Deg C and then any heat not used by the rooms would cycle back to the ASHP which would inverter down to a lower capacity. Providing you are running the system @ above 50 % of design so number of rooms and their size greater than the number not heated, it would not or should not short cycle to much. This would make the system slightly less efficient but If the systems max efficiency say was SCOP of 4.2 on an 8kW system and you are only using it for 5kW then perhaps you would get 3.7 SCOP over all (this is a guess) Remember all systems need to be designed accurately to gain max efficiency but these are designed at peak -2.7Deg C Ambient, 35 / 55 flow rate. but heat loss in a property varies from 12pm daytime to midnight, month by month season by season, the ASHP copes with this, also if the heat loss is 8kW its only that at initial points of the day across the year, the rest of the year the system will do its magic and modulate. There is just a limit of efficiency to this modulation.
Its likely the Grant funding and UK standards dictates the system cannot be deliberately designed to be half a house, so design and install the whole house and turn the TRV's down to very low after commissioning as when you own it, its is your heating system.
Also just to prove that its not the machines capability to run less but rather design rules that limits, most ASHP also heat stored water, most stored water coils run at 3 or 4kW even on an 11, 12, 14 and 16kW ASHP in this mode the ASHP just runs at 30% or what relevant to its capacity, its just less efficient than the heating circuit but way more efficient than electric heater elements and boilers (from a carbon producing point of view) Design is looking to lower your carbon footprint as well as give you comfortable heating but across the whole house.
AAC Group Ltd covering the Kent Area for design, supply and installation of ASHP systems, service and maintenance, diagnostics and repairs.
Professional installer. Book a one-to-one consultation for pre- and post-installation advice, troubleshooting and system optimisation.
-
Predicted Heat Loss & Needs from MCS calcs vs EPC vs actual
3 months ago
-
Heat Pump Heats the House… But It’s Not Cosy. Emitter Changes or System Tweak?
4 months ago
-
How to choose Towel Rails for an ASHP
7 months ago
-
Compute heat loss from energy used
9 months ago
-
ASHP Heat Loss Calculations with Log Burner
3 years ago
- 26 Forums
- 2,590 Topics
- 60.3 K Posts
- 195 Online
- 6,922 Members
Join Us!
Worth Watching
Latest Posts
-
RE: Air-to-air heat pumps - best models and installers
@ashp-bobba, do I remember correctly that you install A...
By Mars , 48 minutes ago
-
RE: A2A vs A2W: Which Heat Pump Would You Pick?
There isn’t as far as I know, @djh, but you’re welcome ...
By Majordennisbloodnok , 5 hours ago
-
RE: Can anyone explain the following behaviour with a Grant Aerona 3 R30 / Smart Controller?
Final Update. Yesterday, I was going through the moti...
By Unsure , 6 hours ago
-
RE: How much can an east/west solar solar system be oversized?
Best performance occurs with PV string near inverter no...
By bobflux , 6 hours ago
-
RE: Forum updates, announcements & issues
Thank you Mars for all your dedication to improvements;...
By Toodles , 9 hours ago
-
RE: Who do I complain to about a poor ECO4 installation, can anyone advise?
Take it one step at a time. If you can get the dhw and...
By JamesPa , 16 hours ago
-
RE: Selling 2 x Kensa Shoebox 7kw GSHP (New)
Hi Jain, we’ve got an ashp so I’m afraid we won’t be yo...
By Judith , 16 hours ago
-
No buffer or low loss header Grant controller in sens...
By JamesPa , 1 day ago
-
RE: Are We Sleepwalking Into Another Race to the Bottom?
That's an amazing job to get all that in there! A truly...
By Batpred , 1 day ago
-
RE: Anyone concerned about GivEnergy?
Thanks for your advice - I'll keep trying with the inst...
By JohnDwyer , 1 day ago
-
RE: Plug and play solar. Thoughts?
I am also yet to find a case where an installation that...
By Batpred , 1 day ago
-
RE: British Gas vs Octopus Energy vs Heat Geek vs EDF vs Aira vs OVO vs EON.Next vs Boxt
This is what I got from OVO. At least it was quick.. ...
By Batpred , 1 day ago
-
RE: IVT greenline HT Plus E - Circulation Pump Constantly On
Welcome to the forums. Irrespective of which brand yo...
By Mars , 2 days ago
-
RE: 7.5kW Heat Loss, But Quoted a 10kW Midea. No Re-Pipe, No Buffer Tank. Does This Add Up?
Oh, how I love these old scientists!I'm in with your 5 ...
By LeJamaisContent , 2 days ago
-
RE: Jokes and fun posts about heat pumps and renewables
@jamespa Someone who is not easily phased I suppose.
By Toodles , 2 days ago
-
@downfield Once OE had removed our gas meter and capped...
By Toodles , 2 days ago
-
Living with a Low Loss Header (Or Measure For Measure, it’s All About the Pump)
I know, low loss headers (LLHs) aren’t necessarily ‘low...
By Toodles , 2 days ago
-
RE: What is the main ‘dictator’ of Agile’s unit price?
After seeing umpteen negative price slots again today, ...
By ChandyKris , 3 days ago
-
RE: The Reality Behind a Failed Heat Pump Installation – and an IWA Insurance Rejection
@ian-w Getting back to the problem in hand, what do yo...
By JamesPa , 3 days ago
-
RE: Solar Power Output – Let’s Compare Generation Figures
@papahuhu Generally, I leave Homely to take care of mat...
By Toodles , 3 days ago
-
@judith, glad you found the story interesting. On eff...
By Mars , 4 days ago
-
RE: New Vaillant aroTherm Plus in black - When will it come to the UK?
The vaillant controller and app do all of that (and mor...
By JamesPa , 4 days ago


