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Ashp booster control?

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(@keithb)
Active Member Member
Joined: 6 months ago
Posts: 11
Topic starter   [#3107]

Hi after battling for 18 months with many problems most from install after another session with bosch techies have set climate control which seems to be helping BUT jjst found a switch in immersion cupboard thats never been on. Goes into the main wiring box on the Telford immersion tank. Installer says should be on as its a booster if ashp cant heat water enough to satisfy demand. BUT the bottom element has no wiring and the top element goes straight to my solar controller. So what foes ot do. First Telford said should be wired then came back and said optional. Two  service people think it should be wired but needs electrical specialist. At a loss anyone know answer



   
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JamesPa
(@jamespa)
Illustrious Member Moderator
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 5266
 

It will almost certainly just be a regular immersion element in the tank, nothing ashp specific at all.

What is the problem you are trying to solve?


4kW peak of solar PV since 2011; EV and a 1930s house which has been partially renovated to improve its efficiency. 7kW Vaillant heat pump.


   
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(@keithb)
Active Member Member
Joined: 6 months ago
Posts: 11
Topic starter  

When its very cold the ashp struggles to heat house and hot water so when i found this switch i knew nothing about and was told it is to help boost water heating automatically when ashp not able to heat water enough it sounded like a reason. The immersion tank has two heating elements si it seemed to make sense that one may be used as a booster. 



   
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JamesPa
(@jamespa)
Illustrious Member Moderator
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 5266
 

Ok

Well almost certainly it could be used instead of the ashp to heat the domestic hot water when its very cold, thus giving the ashp a couple more hours to heat the house.  If it's in the tank it's not easy/may not be possible to get it directly to supplement space heating.

If it's not wired it does nothing, the question is whether it's worth wiring up and if so how and why (or to be more accurate why, and therefore how)

Before going down that route are you sure that ashp capacity is the problem (it might be but is not the only explanation for the symptom you describe, nor even the most likely). 

Is it already working 24*7 no external timers, with all trvs open (or better still removed), thermostats if any turned to max so they have no effect and weather compensation correctly adjusted (what are your wc parameters)? 

In addition can you also tell us a bit about your system/house (hp model, type of emitters, floor area, construction)?  Do you have a buffer tank?  At what outside temp does it start being insufficient?


This post was modified 4 weeks ago 7 times by JamesPa

4kW peak of solar PV since 2011; EV and a 1930s house which has been partially renovated to improve its efficiency. 7kW Vaillant heat pump.


   
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Mars
 Mars
(@editor)
Illustrious Member Admin
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 4807
 

@Keithb, I think @JamesPa is right to slow this down before assuming that switch is the answer.

There appear to be three separate things becoming muddled together here: the immersion heater in the cylinder, any electric booster built into the Bosch indoor unit and the solar controller connected to the upper immersion. They may all produce heat electrically, but they serve different purposes and may be controlled completely differently.

Some Bosch heat pump systems have an integrated electric booster in the indoor unit. That can assist the heat pump when required and, depending on the configuration, may contribute to space heating as well as hot water production. That is not the same thing as an immersion heater screwed into the Telford cylinder.

The cylinder immersion is normally there for backup, direct hot water heating or the periodic high-temperature cycle. It cannot directly add heat to the radiators. As James says, its useful role during very cold weather could be to heat the domestic hot water instead of the heat pump, leaving the heat pump with more time and capacity to heat the house.

However, from what you have described, it is far from clear that this mystery switch currently does that.

If the upper immersion is wired directly to the solar controller and the lower immersion has no wiring connected, then the switch cannot simply be assumed to operate either element. It might supply a contactor or part of the control system inside the wiring centre, or it might be a redundant supply that was never completed. The only reliable way to know is for someone competent (good luck with that) to trace the cable, inspect the wiring diagram and test what becomes live when the switch is operated.

I would not simply turn it on and leave it on based on the installer saying it is "a booster". After 18 months, you should have been given a clear schematic and commissioning record showing exactly what every supply, heater and control does. The fact that Telford, the installer and two service engineers have given you different answers is not reassuring.

More importantly, the heat pump struggling in cold weather does not automatically prove that it lacks capacity. It could be capacity, but it could also be the heating curve, restricted flow, thermostats or TRVs shutting circuits, poor balancing, hot water scheduling, a disabled booster setting or the unit not being configured to run continuously.

I would ask the installer to confirm in writing:

  1. What the switch actually supplies.
  2. Whether the Bosch has its own internal electric booster and whether it is enabled.
  3. Which immersion element is intended for backup and which is controlled by the solar diverter.
  4. Whether the heat pump is designed to meet the house heat loss at your local design temperature. 
  5. What temperature and flow rate the system was commissioned to deliver.

In the meantime, please post the exact Bosch heat pump and indoor unit model numbers, the Telford cylinder model number and clear photos of the switch, wiring centre and both immersion connections. That should allow us to get much closer to a definite answer, and I can ask some credible installers to take a look. 

Using the immersion for hot water during the coldest periods may well be a sensible workaround, but first we need to establish whether you genuinely have a capacity problem or whether another installation and commissioning issue is once again being disguised as "the heat pump struggling".


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(@keithb)
Active Member Member
Joined: 6 months ago
Posts: 11
Topic starter  

@editor wellvery comprehensive answer. I will get all info and pictures together. The mystery switch talked about has a Hager unit on it that has two feeds going intobthe mater wiring box on the side of the telford tempest immersion tank. I have a bosch 2000awf all in one unit. 6kw. The immersion tanl has two elements top connects solely to the solar immersun heating control. The bottom element which initially Telford said was the auxiliary heater for hir water only  is not wired to anything??!! 
Very limited initial info from installer bosch book very comprehensive if you understand/ have had it explained which i didnt. Flow temp is now controlled by the heat pump climate conttol settings which does seem to help with economy. Re suitable installers totally agree i just had it serviced by home serve. Very thorough but as far as the detailed controller he admitted its a learning curve for all techies despite pretty good training in part as do many different makes and controls. 
I will get the other info and pictures. Really appreciate your help. At least now no leaks and no more rust and debris in the system which should help. 
ps before i set up the climate control with bosch help i had flow between 45-50 upping it to 50 when very cold out and hot water asking for 50



   
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