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*the UK has larger mains plugs to include a fuse, which are there to protect the house wiring from a faulty appliance. Continental plugs are not fused and the wiring is designed for that"
Thats incorrect. The protection devices (fuses or MCBs/RCBOs) in the CU protect the house wiring, the fuse only protects the cable between the socket and the appliance.
*the UK uses ring main configuration of wiring around the house to allow larger currents to flow with smaller cross-section wires
*continental household wiring tends to all be of type direct to each socket, thus using more copper
True, although I get the impression radial circuits like in continental europe are becoming more common in the UK now that we rarely plug in high power devices. In addition some electricians will, in some circumstances, down-fuse an existing ring from 32 to 20A, which enables them to relax the rules on adding sockets to ring mains, because effectively its fused as if its a radial and no longer relies on two paths to each socket to ensure that the cable is protected by the fuse/RCD.
So perhaps there is a difference between how safe the plug in solar would be in different countries. Without a full knowledge of the wiring regs and options in both countries it is tricky to judge.
Im a physicist not an electrician (but electricals are just simple physics). I cant personally see how these particular differences would have a material effect. Happy to be corrected though.
The snag in any country is that wiring gets modified over time and few owners/renters know what is behind their sockets.
Thats true. The theory is that modifications obey the regulations. Where done by electricians they very likely do. When done DiY possibly not.
For example I found a junction between several cables (I wont say junction box, because there was no box) buried under 13mm of plaster, with the wiring just covered by newspaper before the plaster was applied. It wasn't in a permitted zone (ie within 150mm of the edge) nor in line with any other fitting, definitely not compliant. Lucky I found it really!
This post was modified 3 months ago 3 times by JamesPa
4kW peak of solar PV since 2011; EV and a 1930s house which has been partially renovated to improve its efficiency. 7kW Vaillant heat pump.
So perhaps there is a difference between how safe the plug in solar would be in different countries. Without a full knowledge of the wiring regs and options in both countries it is tricky to judge.
Im a physicist not an electrician (but electricals are just simple physics). I cant personally see how these particular differences would have a material effect. Happy to be corrected though.
I am also yet to find a case where an installation that is compliant to the UK regs could not take plug in solar acceptable in Germany. Except of course for the issue related to certain types of RCDs that are not bidirectional - the prevalence of which is not clear (but which are simple to test for). And should it be unsuitable, it is generally simple to replace.
8kW Solis S6-EH1P8K-L-PLUS hybrid inverter; G99: 8kw export; 16kWh Seplos Fogstar battery; Ohme Home Pro EV charger; 100Amp head, HA lab on mini PC
I wouldn't disagree - put another way - tell the industry its going to happen and challenge them to deal with it. I would however also set a deadline for implementation to avoid filibustering by the industry and set severe constraints on what impositions they can put on the plug in solar manufacturers, in order to avoid them making it impossible/unnecessarily expensive in practice.
I just came across the gov.uk announcement. They did not even managed to get MCS in line, this is what they quoted the head of MCS saying:
"What matters now is implementation, and ensuring households have confidence in the technologies their new home will come with. So, it’s vital that housebuilders consider quality and consumer protection, by ensuring every installation is delivered by an MCS certified installer, to MCS standards."
They seem keen to shoot it before it flies..
And by the way, it´s been a few months already. Hopefully Ed would get this ready before the summer. Well, some summer 😀
8kW Solis S6-EH1P8K-L-PLUS hybrid inverter; G99: 8kw export; 16kWh Seplos Fogstar battery; Ohme Home Pro EV charger; 100Amp head, HA lab on mini PC
I wouldn't disagree - put another way - tell the industry its going to happen and challenge them to deal with it. I would however also set a deadline for implementation to avoid filibustering by the industry and set severe constraints on what impositions they can put on the plug in solar manufacturers, in order to avoid them making it impossible/unnecessarily expensive in practice.
I just came across the gov.uk announcement. They did not even managed to get MCS in line, this is what they quoted the head of MCS saying:
"What matters now is implementation, and ensuring households have confidence in the technologies their new home will come with. So, it’s vital that housebuilders consider quality and consumer protection, by ensuring every installation is delivered by an MCS certified installer, to MCS standards."
They seem keen to shoot it before it flies..
And by the way, it´s been a few months already. Hopefully Ed would get this ready before the summer. Well, some summer 😀
MCS are inevitably going to be opposed to this because it cuts them completely out of the loop and may well force down prices for 'installed' systems in order to remain competitive . There is nothing that Government can do to change this reality, other than plough on and do the right thing (ie make it happen despite industry complaints), My guess is that MCS will continue to fight it tooth and nail and if it is introduced they may even campaign against it and put out scare stories.
This post was modified 4 weeks ago 3 times by JamesPa
4kW peak of solar PV since 2011; EV and a 1930s house which has been partially renovated to improve its efficiency. 7kW Vaillant heat pump.
I'm case anyone has any doubt that the trade will continue to try to block this here is an article from 3 days ago. I think we all know that pause is a euphemism for stop.
It's a determined government that resists this sort of pressure and the industry knows that it's difficult to do. They will keep on finding 'reasons' until overruled or the govt gives up.
Indeed, all of which have a vested interest in preserving the status quo. Rather than proposing solutions or identifying a few remaining very specific issues that differentiates the UK from eg Germany, which they then say they are working on at speed with a specific timetable, they are throwing everything at it in the hope something will stick, which shows their intent and almost certainly shows that they don't have a sustainable argument.
I am in no doubt based on this that the intent is to block, not to facilitate. Does anyone seriously doubt that?
This post was modified 4 weeks ago 5 times by JamesPa
4kW peak of solar PV since 2011; EV and a 1930s house which has been partially renovated to improve its efficiency. 7kW Vaillant heat pump.
Yes, unfortunately our policymakers learned to be very cautious, as they are under funded and over reliant on industry.
Consumers are paying for poor regulation, but few politicians are willing/able to make that point. And it takes a long time to correct the effect of underfunding.
8kW Solis S6-EH1P8K-L-PLUS hybrid inverter; G99: 8kw export; 16kWh Seplos Fogstar battery; Ohme Home Pro EV charger; 100Amp head, HA lab on mini PC
It's legal in Germany (well known for lax safety regulations - not), and indeed several other EU countries, and nothing that has been reported singles out what the material differences are between those countries and the UK, in order to justify a different approach. Given that we largely harmonised electrical regulations when we were in the EU, the genuine differentiator remains a mystery.
Unfortunately I can imagine that it's very difficult, possibly impossible, for government quickly to override the industry objections given that they purport to be based on consumer safety.
I would observe that the established industry has a lot to loose should plug in be legalised.
Agreed, but there seems to be a focus on alleviating energy poverty, so lots of people living in flats may be interested in this. It looks like a quick fix even if it the sun typically does niot shine here when heating needs are stronger.
Agreed, but there seems to be a focus on alleviating energy poverty, so lots of people living in flats may be interested in this. It looks like a quick fix even if it the sun typically does niot shine here when heating needs are stronger
I suspect Milliband is deeply frustrated by the protectist crap from the esttablised industry.
Unfortunately that doesn't give him carte blanche to ignore it. Practically speaking, although Government is sovereign, he has to work through a process first, getting consultation responses, evaluating them etc.
Well strictly speaking he doesn't, but not to do so would be authoritarian, and I doubt he supports authoritarianism and therefore wouldn't want to establish a dangerous precedent.
Unfortunately some of our politicians do not have these scruples.
Be careful what you wish for, and even more careful what you vote for! And if you think authoritarianism represents a risk, explain to people why things take time rather than criticising the delay.
This post was modified 3 weeks ago 7 times by JamesPa
4kW peak of solar PV since 2011; EV and a 1930s house which has been partially renovated to improve its efficiency. 7kW Vaillant heat pump.
Be careful what you wish for, and even more careful what you vote for! And if you think authoritarianism represents a risk, explain to people why things take time rather than criticising the delay.
Absolutely. I think he should explain it.
it just seems that many consultations are open for very extended periods. If they inform the main stakeholders, can they not run it with more of a sense of urgency?
8kW Solis S6-EH1P8K-L-PLUS hybrid inverter; G99: 8kw export; 16kWh Seplos Fogstar battery; Ohme Home Pro EV charger; 100Amp head, HA lab on mini PC
Agreed, but there seems to be a focus on alleviating energy poverty, so lots of people living in flats may be interested in this. It looks like a quick fix even if it the sun typically does niot shine here when heating needs are stronger
I suspect Milliband is deeply frustrated by the protectist crap from the esttablised industry.
Unfortunately that doesn't give him carte blanche to ignore it. Practically speaking, although Government is sovereign, he has to work through a process first, getting consultation responses, evaluating them etc.
Well strictly speaking he doesn't, but not to do so would be authoritarian, and I doubt he supports authoritarianism and therefore wouldn't want to establish a dangerous precedent.
Nearly spilt my tea laughing at that one. People arrested for holding up blank pieces of paper or telling jurors their rights. Government mandated digital ID, ID checks on all social media coming, trying to ban VPNs, government not parents to decide what their own children can access ? I think telling the NICIEC that they are a joke for most of their supposed risks like extension cables is way more democratic then their usual practices.
If anything the IET has made his job very much easier by signing up with the trade bodies (who have clear biases) and to mostly ludicrous claims. Had they stuck to RCBOs, panel grounding, cable temperature calculations and aspects of things like downrating protection Milliband would have had a challenge. But as they've mostly gone for the obvious comedy stuff that can be ripped apart that'll (for good or bad) also attach to their more relevant questions.
This post was modified 3 weeks ago by EtchedPixels
