Posted by: @jamespa

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try asking for design details of any other consumer product and you may be disappointed!

The key difference with a heat pump compared to the vast majority of consumer products is that it is meant to be designed to match the property. In other words, all heat pump designs are, to a greater or lesser extent, bespoke. Then add in the track record of failed installations, and then there is a very good case for the consumer asking detailed questions before agreeing to a proposed design.

Doctors on the other hand should always be trusted, even the ones who do plumbing.   

Posted by: @jamespa

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@majordennisbloodnok is spot on with his aversion to 'trust me I'm a doctor', but try asking for design details of any other consumer product and you may be disappointed!

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The thing is that I don't believe we have to ask for design details of the product; merely what their design will mean in practice in that property. Heat Geek's "secret sauce" is not what flow temp they're going to design the whole system around at what outside air temperature; it's the algorithm they use to get to that conclusion. After all, the flow temperature will become pretty apparent as soon as the system is commissioned since if it's to benefit from a BUS grant the accompanying MCS documentation will reveal it anyway. Telling the customer (if the question is asked) what flow temperature they're going to be designing the system around isn't going to give away any trade secrets at all.

In my professional life, I design IT solutions to fit business processes. I have found over the years that if I include the people who'll use what I produce at all stages in the design, development, testing and implementation then by the time we're ready to go live they already have a sense of ownership and are already convinced that what's being delivered is what they want and need. There is no handover as such since they're already familiar with what's being delivered and there is no argument about "that's not what we asked for" since they've had ample opportunity to correct misunderstandings way before the system goes live. It's not quite the same with a heating system but I am certain that excluding the customer is a sure-fire way to maximise the chances of post-implementation complaints and associated repeat visits. 

@cathoderay I agree.

This is not only about the mass produced heat pump (which we have specs for) but a bespoke design for every individual property.

Also I had detailed heat losses with design flow temps, heat pump outputs etc from every installer except heat geek.

My heat geek installer sent theie own quote through Spruce where the info is clear about heat pump sizing, radiator sizing etc through Spruce.

Posted by: @cathoderay

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Doctors on the other hand should always be trusted, even the ones who do plumbing. 

...which, I'm reliably informed by one of them whose speciality it was, is doc-speak for heart surgery 😉.

And since heart systems have finer tolerances than heat systems, I'd have to agree; definitely worth trusting the doctors.

Posted by: @cathoderay

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In other words, all heat pump designs are, to a greater or lesser extent, bespoke. Then add in the track record of failed installations, and then there is a very good case for the consumer asking detailed questions before agreeing to a proposed design 

I agree, but many people won't/can't/can't be bothered.  For them the Heat Geek offer, assuming that the guarantee is, in practice, honoured, is distinct and adds value.   

Posted by: @jamespa

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Posted by: @cathoderay

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In other words, all heat pump designs are, to a greater or lesser extent, bespoke. Then add in the track record of failed installations, and then there is a very good case for the consumer asking detailed questions before agreeing to a proposed design 

I agree, but many people won't/can't/can't be bothered.  For them the Heat Geek offer, assuming that the guarantee is, in practice, honoured, is distinct and adds value.   

I didn't think that was in dispute. All I thought we were discussing was whether, as well as offering that guarantee, Heat Geek should be prepared to answer customer questions about what that particular guaranteed system will look like in that customer's home. If the customer doesn't ask any questions, Heat Geek would have no need to elaborate but if the customer wants to understand more then surely being open is a good thing.

@majordennisbloodnok I would suggest that the ‘plumbing’ aspect extends a little further; I have very recently attended outpatient’s Urology dept. and am awaiting further procedures, and an  MRI scan for our Cardiology Consultant to examine for my hole in the heart historical events. (I didn’t even know I had a hole in the heart until last year but apparently, I have had it since birth!) I have also been a drain on the NHS in the Dermatology area but am not grouping that with ‘plumbing’.😉 Regards, Toodles.

@jamespa thats a good point. People havent really bothered much on the boiler side.

I was one of them as i recently realised that you could do weather compensation on boilers which not many installers support 

Posted by: @jamespa

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I agree, but many people won't/can't/can't be bothered.  For them the Heat Geek offer, assuming that the guarantee is, in practice, honoured, is distinct and adds value.   

I agree, but...

There are accounts of people thinking they had the guarantee, only to find out they didn't, because although they found a Heat Geek Installer through the Heat Geek website, they didn't arrange the installation via the Heat Geek website. I believe @editor may have tried to get this crucial point made clearer on the Heat Geek website. The fact that this wasn't crystal clear on the website from the outset raises the question of whether other exclusions will appear should a customer claim.

Unless the customer sets up their own full monitoring, the whole process relies on Heat Geek spotting a problem, and then telling the customer their system is under-performing. This inevitably creates a conflict of interest, which risks testing the ability of the Heat Geek engineers to resist temptation.

Posted by: @toodles

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@majordennisbloodnok I would suggest that the ‘plumbing’ aspect extends a little further; I have very recently attended outpatient’s Urology dept. and am awaiting further procedures, and an  MRI scan for our Cardiology Consultant to examine for my hole in the heart historical events. (I didn’t even know I had a hole in the heart until last year but apparently, I have had it since birth!) I have also been a drain on the NHS in the Dermatology area but am not grouping that with ‘plumbing’.😉 Regards, Toodles.

You may well be right, @toodles. It is my experience that doctors tend to downplay the technical challenges of what they do - hence referring to cardiovascular surgery as plumbing - without anyone thinking any the less of them (quite the opposite, in fact). It's a pity people in so many other professions don't follow suit and instead choose to overstate what they do.

Posted by: @majordennisbloodnok

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If the customer doesn't ask any questions, Heat Geek would have no need to elaborate but if the customer wants to understand more then surely being open is a good thing.

Yes but there are good reasons why they might not wish to be open (which I have set out in another post), and customers may well have to accept that there are trade offs.  Like for like I would expect a supplier that offers a performance guarantee also to be more expensive, which there is some evidence that Heat Geek are.

As I say I'm not defending Heat Geek, just saying that we should be open to a model which, correctly executed (and I'm not saying it is) is more focussed on what the customer cares about and at the same time we should expect trade offs relative to the vanilla MCS model where the customer bears almost all of the design risk.

Posted by: @cathoderay

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Unless the customer sets up their own full monitoring, the whole process relies on Heat Geek spotting a problem, and then telling the customer their system is under-performing.

Most customers seem to know if their heating is costing them too much or not heating the house.  For most products and services the onus is on the customer to spot problems not the supplier to alert them to problems, unless it's a safety issue.  This is no different!

Posted by: @cathoderay

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There are accounts of people thinking they had the guarantee, only to find out they didn't, because although they found a Heat Geek Installer through the Heat Geek website, they didn't arrange the installation via the Heat Geek website. I believe @editor may have tried to get this crucial point made clearer on the Heat Geek website. The fact that this wasn't crystal clear on the website from the outset raises the question of whether other exclusions will appear should a customer claim.

That's an important point.  To my way of thinking Heat Geek and an installer that advertised he is a Heat Geek but accepts direct bookings are jointly and severally responsible for making that clear

@jamespa I feel to a certain extent, that many of us are still (sadly) at the ‘novelty’ stage by choosing to have a heat pump installed.

I am aware that a proportion of installations may be carried out through government schemes such as Eco4 and that some recipients of these installations may have little or no particular interest in the mechanics, the science or the performance aspects of such systems and as long as they are moderately comfortable are content to live in blissful ignorance of the finer details.

However, for us ‘Novelty’ seeking ‘newfangled’ heat pump owners, we are generally far better informed and eager to know the ins and outs and are interested in knowing the details of SCOP and flow temperatures; a good installer should be aware of this and willing to supply answers when requested. It isn’t ‘Nerdism’ after all! Regards, Toodles.