Hi, @goflying, and welcome.

Others better qualified than me will be able to provide advice but in order to make their job easier I wonder if I could ask a few more questions.

Firstly, I can't find much in the way of details about the Eco4 scheme; does its funding rely on an assessment at a single point in time or do the terms and conditions mention anything about the system continuing to be gas-free beyond the heat pump installation date?

Secondly, you mention your caution about greater leccy bills with an ASHP, but what exactly are your concerns? Unless badly installed, you should see your energy bills drop (leccy will go up whilst gas goes down to zero), so is your concern the monthly fluctuations? I can certainly agree that you may see outgoings for coldest months of winter go up whilst outgoings for more clement months go down, although that's by no means certain.

Thirdly, why do you want DHW at 60degC? At that temperature you'll have to mix it with cold water to make it useable so unless you have a smaller hot water cylinder than necessary to meet your needs at 50degC then you're paying a high energy price to get the water that hot unnecessarily.

As I say, these are only investigative questions, not criticisms. The more the techie forum members know about your system and aims the better the advice will be.

Posted by: @goflying

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is it sensible/possible to very carefully remove the existing gas boiler, cap off the water and gas pipes, and then re-instate the boiler once ASHP installation is complete.

...and don't take the ECO4 funding or as in commit fraud?  Remember this is a public forum.  Technically possible though.

@abernyte what???? No fraud or intent to commit fraud here whatsoever!

@goflying Welcome to the forums! Abernyte’s wording might be a bit strong, but I do agree with his point. Removing the boiler, installing the heat pump, and then reconnecting the boiler later isn’t really in line with the scheme’s intent. Personally, I believe hybrid systems should be allowed in certain cases, but currently, if you’re receiving government funding, you’re required to follow the scheme’s conditions – which means the boiler has to be removed entirely and can’t be reinstated in any way.

If you do decide to proceed and re-instated the boiler, you will have controller issues between the ASHP and the boiler, as they will need to be configured as a hybrid system. This should be done as part of the same install so that everything works together. 

Posted by: @goflying

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the reason we want to retain the gas boiler is because we are very wary of incurring much greater electricity bills with the ash-  and we do very much want 60c water in the DHW loop.

@goflying

I would really just reiterate @majordennisbloodnok observations. A properly installed Heat Pump should reduce your heating bills not increase them and 60C DHW is just a recipe for 3rd degree burns.

There is also the element of rule breaking that has been pointed out.

You really just need to make the plunge and go fully electic. I appreciate that under ECO 4 you may not have a great deal of input into the installation, but you will also be getting insulation upgrades I imagine which should make it a no-brainer.

As an aside, a friend of mine is also getting the ECO4 grant and he has been told that he will have to have a gas combi fitted for DHW as well as his heat pump for space heating. Insanity in my view but has anyone mentioned that to you?

Sorry for being blunt Mars, but the ECO4 scheme is to allow low income households to replace inefficient fossil fuel heating with a low carbon alternative. Taking a £5000 grant to remove a LPG boiler and fit a heat pump and then quietly reinstating the fossil fuel heating without paying back the ECO4 £5000 grant is fraud.  As far as I can tell, at the completion of the ECO4 works a surveyor will have to certify that the premises are gas free.

I should underline that I think it's perfectly reasonable for people considering renewable heating installations to have plenty of concerns; after all, it's a big change and quite a shift in "how we do things". Many of those concerns are later found to be unfounded and just the result of unfamiliarity, but we can't address the concerns unless you make them public - which, of course, is exactly what you're doing here, @goflying.

Nonetheless, asking "can we get a heat pump whilst keeping the gas boiler" is a bit like saying "I've got a job to do and I've got a screwdriver; is there any way I can do the job that makes sure the screwdriver's used". The boiler is only a tool to achieve an outcome, as is the heat pump, so the right way to tackle this is to research and understand what you're trying to achieve, then after that understand what each of the tools at your disposal can and can't do. Let the job define the tool, not the other way round.

There is, of course, no reason why you can't put the gas boiler into storage of some sort until you can be confident it's not necessary, then sell it on eBay.

Posted by: @abernyte

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Sorry for being blunt Mars, but the ECO4 scheme is to allow low income households to replace inefficient fossil fuel heating with a low carbon alternative. Taking a £5000 grant to remove a LPG boiler and fit a heat pump and then quietly reinstating the fossil fuel heating without paying back the ECO4 £5000 grant is fraud.  As far as I can tell, at the completion of the ECO4 works a surveyor will have to certify that the premises are gas free.

That's why I asked what the terms are of the Eco4 scheme, @abernyte. I absolutely agree that it would be unacceptable to accept a grant for supplying a heat pump and then put the system back as it was and sell the heat pump for a profit. However, that's not what @goflying's motives appear to be and if simply asking the question puts them in a more informed position then that's a good thing.

To be clear, though, the question was whether an Eco4 heat pump install could be amended later to turn it into a hybrid system. Technically, it probably could be (although the added complexity might end up prohibitively expensive) but the Ts and Cs are likely to mean that contractually it probably couldn't. Someone more familiar than me about the scheme would be needed to clarify the terms of the scheme in detail, though. Are you in a position to do that? It'd be good if so.

The most recent document that I can find is this https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications/eco4-delivery-guidance  

When I was practicing law, selling the heat pump after putting back the old fossil boiler would not be required. You have taken the grant for a defined and single specified purpose, mens rea,  reinstating the old boiler and not paying back the grant would complete the act,  actus reus.  If it is intended to have a hybrid system, then that is what needs to be specified from the start. But I am an old fogey and ethics seem thin on the ground these days. 

Posted by: @abernyte

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The most recent document that I can find is this https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications/eco4-delivery-guidance  /p>

...

Thanks, that's helpful. Not sure I'm doing too well with the language, but never mind.

Posted by: @abernyte

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...

When I was practicing law, selling the heat pump after putting back the old fossil boiler would not be required. You have taken the grant for a defined and single specified purpose, mens rea,  reinstating the old boiler and not paying back the grant would complete the act,  actus reus.  If it is intended to have a hybrid system, then that is what needs to be specified from the start. But I am an old fogey and ethics seem thin on the ground these days. 

Understood. Bear in mind I was never suggesting anything about selling; merely putting forward a deliberately polarised hypothetical situation to illustrate a clear-cut case that would be unacceptable.

It seems clear that the Eco4 grant won't allow for a hybrid system to be designed and installed. I have absolutely no idea, even having had a quick glance over the document you provided, whether the ensuing contract also prohibits the installed system being amended after install to become a hybrid system. Nonetheless, the underlying message I was reading is the implied one of "I'd like to get renewable heating but I'm worried what it'll do to my bills". If we can address @goflying's actual concerns and provide the reassurance being sought then all the hybrid system discussions become irrelevant.

Incidentally, I don't think you need to be an old fogey to be ethical but I certainly don't doubt your moral compass.

Posted by: @majordennisbloodnok

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Posted by: @abernyte

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Sorry for being blunt Mars, but the ECO4 scheme is to allow low income households to replace inefficient fossil fuel heating with a low carbon alternative. Taking a £5000 grant to remove a LPG boiler and fit a heat pump and then quietly reinstating the fossil fuel heating without paying back the ECO4 £5000 grant is fraud.  As far as I can tell, at the completion of the ECO4 works a surveyor will have to certify that the premises are gas free.

That's why I asked what the terms are of the Eco4 scheme, @abernyte. I absolutely agree that it would be unacceptable to accept a grant for supplying a heat pump and then put the system back as it was and sell the heat pump for a profit. However, that's not what @goflying's motives appear to be and if simply asking the question puts them in a more informed position then that's a good thing.

To be clear, though, the question was whether an Eco4 heat pump install could be amended later to turn it into a hybrid system. Technically, it probably could be (although the added complexity might end up prohibitively expensive) but the Ts and Cs are likely to mean that contractually it probably couldn't. Someone more familiar than me about the scheme would be needed to clarify the terms of the scheme in detail, though. Are you in a position to do that? It'd be good if so.

 

I’m sorry that I’ve asked what has been taken by some as a provocative question.

I didn’t want to bore everyone with the copious detail of what is a pretty complex project. Suffice to say, that my intent is not in any way to cheat or game what is an essential grant for us.

The ASHP is only a relatively small component of the funded project which relies on a complex Ofgem modelling and scoring method for funding - and brings the overall scoring just low enough to make the whole project viable 

Our existing condensing boiler heats our central heating and DHW to 60c without problem. Yes our existing HW is hot, but not scalding probably due to the lack of insulation in the existing plumbing which would be prohibitively expensive to remedy. We live in a property which is very far removed from ‘modern construction and dates back a long, long time.

I asked the topic question in genuine good faith and apologise unreservedly if my question has been misinterpreted or upset anyone. 

My concerns are real - we obviously have very limited means, which enables us to qualify for an eco4 grant. I am simply and seriously concerned that any change to our heating and hot water system does not result in greatly increased and unaffordable bills.