Posted by: @derek-m

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Precisely. Who is training the trainers? 

Perhaps even more pertinent is oversight. Appropriate training ensures installers CAN install kit correctly. Oversight checks they actually DO install kit correctly. However, oversight is only effective it is given teeth to hand out sanctions when standards aren't met.

To be fair, any tradespeople worth their salt want the same thing. If cowboys are allowed to get away with shoddy work, all their competitors have to compete on price (and therefore cut standards, margins or both) just to stay in business. If the rules are enforced, decent tradespeople are able to maintain the standards that allow them to be proud of their service.

@editor

I do not expect there to be any improvement in the current training or regulatory regime. There are too many people making lots of money out of it. We do not expect our training courses to be certified, as they no resemblance to any course currently run in the country. Our training will be evidence based And backed up by irrefutable test data. The training will be both theory and practical, with all the practical work showing the students how and why it should be done in a particular way. The training centre will have working models of all current systems installed in this country today, showing the students the different performance levels of each installation method. Having this evidence, it will be easy for them to see why we have chosen the installation method we have. We will also be teaching the basic rules of fluid dynamics and thermodynamics, again with working models showing students how and why things happen. It is a total read, see, touch and evidence approach to training which we hope will be successful.

Hopefully we're going to drag the industry kicking and screaming into a corner, that is what we hope anyway.

Educating installers is all very well, but they  need skills to educate the public. Heat Geek started with similar ambitions yet they allow the use of on off controls and multi zoning on heat pumps, rather than make the effort of sourcing the right controls from the manufacturers, or even a third party manufacturers, which aren’t even in the U.K. because our regs are so prosaic. Get the equipment right and everything falls into place.

Explaining to an end user why heatmiser, nest, honeywell etc controls are sub optimal and they have to have a different interface is a key challenge as is the fact that a heat pump should be on all the time with minimal user intervention.

I am up for helping if required, as I have been installing heat pump controls for 15 years..but I would only do that if there was zero tolerance for on off controls, as I have had for 15 years on  about 400 installations.

@heacol, will your graduates have a badge or certificate that homeowners can look out for?

@editor what’s needed is a new trade, a sort of eco technician, or specifying and commissioning specialist

That all grates with many’s understanding of how heating works

We need a systems approach to installations not piece meal, after all the equipment is all modular meaning you just add matched components

@alec-morrow I could not agree more and that is exactly what we are doing. Our main problem is the horrendous design of the majority of systems requires some intuition from the installer to get it right. I am working on getting the correct control equipment in place to remove the requirement of intuition, which is very challenging. I will get there, but it is going to take a bit of time. Our show rooms will be open to the public so thy can touch and feel the different units while they are operating. We have chosen the units because of the controllers or in the case of Media, we are adding the Homely system as standard to make it work properly, it is a very cheap simple unit.

I have ZERO tolerance for on-off controls in any heating scenario. They were designed for the original fixed output boilers and should now be in the bin. There is no place for them with today's equipment. You will not see any such controllers in any of our installations.

The only place a heatmiser stat should be used is under a table leg to stop it rocking.

Posted by: @alec-morrow

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@editor what’s needed is a new trade, a sort of eco technician, or specifying and commissioning specialist

 

That all grates with many’s understanding of how heating works

 

We need a systems approach to installations not piece meal, after all the equipment is all modular meaning you just add matched components

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is not going to happen. The housing stock is so different that there is no option but a bespoke approach. Train the installers properly in the technology, support them, and it will fall in to place.

Posted by: @editor

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@heacol, will your graduates have a badge or certificate that homeowners can look out for?

@heacol I sincerely hope that you get to train somebody in the Derbyshire area.  I would love to have somebody have a look over my current system that has glycol and Honeywell controls within it.  Pumps that spin even when no heat is being called for etc.  Please advertise/publicise your services in Derbyshire asap.  I'm sure there are many of us would be keen to have an independent well trained operative retro inspect, advise and fix issues.  I'm sure the cost would be quickly recovered in fuel consumption savings.  Good luck.

Posted by: @morgan

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@heacol I sincerely hope that you get to train somebody in the Derbyshire area.  I would love to have somebody have a look over my current system that has glycol and Honeywell controls within it.  Pumps that spin even when no heat is being called for etc.  Please advertise/publicise your services in Derbyshire asap.  I'm sure there are many of us would be keen to have an independent well trained operative retro inspect, advise and fix issues.  I'm sure the cost would be quickly recovered in fuel consumption savings.  Good luck.

@heacol I think I have lol.  First PM for me so I might have messaged myself

Posted by: @heacol

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Posted by: @alec-morrow

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@editor what’s needed is a new trade, a sort of eco technician, or specifying and commissioning specialist

 

That all grates with many’s understanding of how heating works

 

We need a systems approach to installations not piece meal, after all the equipment is all modular meaning you just add matched components

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is not going to happen. The housing stock is so different that there is no option but a bespoke approach. Train the installers properly in the technology, support them, and it will fall in to place.

 

The housing stock is indeed very different.  There are extremes; houses that will always need a bespoke approach with individual, expert input.  But the bulk of the housing stock is the 90 percent or so that lies somewhere in the middle of the distribution curve of complexity. And these houses can be covered by standard designs/models/approaches.  Think of a standard 'victorian terrace' or '1930s detached' design.   If we need bespoke solutions for everyone, or even most, then a large scale ASHP roll out isn't going to happen because (1) it will be too expensive and (2) there will never be enough experts. 

Of all the people who have been on the forum, perhaps only @editor would (IMO) need a truly bespoke solution. Everyone else would be fine with  standard designs.

Just my opinion as a non-professional.  🙂