Posted by: @scrchngwsl

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@majordennisbloodnok Really great summary, nice one.

No problem. Glad it helped. Just seemed the conversations were getting a bit too wide-ranging without some sort of refocusing, so seemed sensible to summarise.

For my part, and at the risk of sounding preachy, I don't ask myself "what's going to make the most financial sense?" and then simply do the thing that generates the highest NPV -- I'm not a management consultant! I ask "what's the right thing to do?", and then try to figure out how to make that work financially.

For me, at the time, that meant getting an ASHP, but also getting solar panels, battery storage, and an EV. If I did all of those things, and invested a bunch of money, then they would all work financially. If I were to do the same calculation now, the ASHP would stand on its own without the other stuff, but back in early 2021 when my wife and I moved into our "forever home" and I was planning this stuff, I needed the other stuff as well. Either way, the investment has returned way more than I expected, but I would have done it anyway and was content with a lower ROI than simply replacing my old gas boiler with a new condensing boiler, my old petrol car with a new petrol car, etc.

Believe me, it doesn't sound preachy at all. The trouble is that asking that sort of question is something that can only be done with the luxury of spare capital to work with. Someone in a council house with a net balance between income and outgoings of +/- a fiver is never going to contemplate the question of whether investing upwards of £15,000 is going to save them money over the next decade. Unfortunately, they are exactly the people who could most use the savings and therefore would benefit most from the assistance to do just that.

Choosing an environmentally damaging solution doesn't make someone a bad or selfish person if that is the only choice they have; it's only unethical if one has the ability to make the "right" choice and still doesn't. I hasten to add I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but from what you've said, it's obvious you were in a good position and made the best choices you could on the back of that. Fingers crossed others try to do the same thing.

Posted by: @derek-m

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Posted by: @jeff

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...

"A new Department for Energy Security and Net Zero, has been tasked with securing our long-term energy supply, bringing down bills and halving inflation. The move recognises the significant impact rising prices have had on households across the country as a result of Putin’s illegal war in Ukraine, and the need to secure more energy from domestic nuclear and renewable sources as we seize the opportunities of net zero."

As usual the words sound quite good, and are in the correct order, but I suspect they will have the same set of idiots try to put the words into practice, with the usual disastrous results.

"...try to put the words into practice..."

To be frank, @derek-m, I think you're being rather optimistic about the amount of action that will ensue. I'd love to be proved wrong.

Posted by: @abernyte

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Indeed it is! Which brings us full circle to the unit cost of electricity. While it is artificially pegged at 34p/kWh it is bad enough. If the trailed leaks of an increase in April to 46p/kWh to test the public reaction go ahead it brings operating at the lower end of the COP range around 2.5 in the colder weather into unaffordable territory for some. 

The cost divergence from fossil fuels if you are off mains grid is now a real issue. It is not helped by there being no bulk LPG deliveries in Scotland between January and April this year as Shell who run the gas plant at Mossmorran have flogged all their LPG output to Europe to get the higher prices.

The Ofgem default standard variable rate calculation window closes on 17th Feb so the government will already have a good idea about what will kick in on 1st April. Most of the costs are already backed in now, only 10 days to go. 

The ofgem announcement is due on the 27th Feb, only 20 days to go, when we should hear what the rates would have been without the Energy Price Guarantee and also what the Energy Price Guarantee rates will be.

I haven’t heard anyone saying the Ofgem price cap will be lower than the EPG this time round, but it looks possible for 1st July. 

We already known the EPG for a typical customer will be £3000, a 20% increase and this will likely all fall on the unit rates as the government are not subsidising the standing charge under the EPG. 

Then the rate increase kicks in on 1st April. At least the weather will be warming up. 

@majordennisbloodnok someone in a council house will just have to wait for the local authority to replace any fossil fuel heating. The tenant won't directly fund the upfront cost. 

Those in housing associations, similarly wait for their housing association. 

Ditto for those in private rented accommodation waiting for their landlord.

That change will often simply be driven by legislation and deadlines for boiler bans in the rented sector.

Of course any costs may be reflected in rents.

Without a social tariff for energy those on low income are stuffed during the transition anyway. We donated our Energy Bill Support Scheme to a Fuel charity. 

Posted by: @jeff

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as we seize the opportunities of net zero

And the rest of us seize the opportunity to throw up in the waste paper bin. I suspect whoever wrote that twaddle has a passion for seizing opportunities, going forward...

And all this from the team that brought you Build Back Better! How about 'Making Government Deliver'? Roll that one around in your mouth and savour it! Never mind that it is an oxymoron dangling in the air, it sure sounds like it's got traction. As Siobhan Sharpe would say, let's burn this pony.

PS @jeff, I know you didn't didn't write this twaddle, the Government's Siobhan Sharpe wrote it, its just the way the form does quotes     

Posted by: @cathoderay

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Posted by: @jeff

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as we seize the opportunities of net zero

And the rest of us seize the opportunity to throw up in the waste paper bin. I suspect whoever wrote that twaddle has a passion for seizing opportunities, going forward...

And all this from the team that brought you Build Back Better! How about 'Making Government Deliver'? Roll that one around in your mouth and savour it! Never mind that it is an oxymoron dangling in the air, it sure sounds like it's got traction. As Siobhan Sharpe would say, let's burn this pony.

PS @jeff, I know you didn't didn't write this twaddle, the Government's Siobhan Sharpe wrote it, its just the way the form does quotes     

It is quite interesting what is and isn't in the wording. 

Basically halving bills and increasing nuclear/renewables.

Simple wording and targets with an election likely next year that is not surprising. 

Posted by: @jeff

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@majordennisbloodnok someone in a council house will just have to wait for the local authority to replace any fossil fuel heating. The tenant won't directly fund the upfront cost. 

Those in housing associations, similarly wait for their housing association. 

Ditto for those in private rented accommodation waiting for their landlord.

That change will often simply be driven by legislation and deadlines for boiler bans in the rented sector.

Of course any costs may be reflected in rents.

Without a social tariff for energy those on low income are stuffed during the transition anyway. We donated our Energy Bill Support Scheme to a Fuel charity. 

You’re quite right, of course, @jeff. What I meant was someone who has bought their council house through the right to buy scheme, and I was being far too lazy in my typing.

The point you raise, though, is just as - if not more - relevant. Any tenants may be stuck with an inefficient energy cost as a result of their landlord’s choices (or inaction).

Posted by: @majordennisbloodnok

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Posted by: @derek-m

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Posted by: @jeff

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...

"A new Department for Energy Security and Net Zero, has been tasked with securing our long-term energy supply, bringing down bills and halving inflation. The move recognises the significant impact rising prices have had on households across the country as a result of Putin’s illegal war in Ukraine, and the need to secure more energy from domestic nuclear and renewable sources as we seize the opportunities of net zero."

As usual the words sound quite good, and are in the correct order, but I suspect they will have the same set of idiots try to put the words into practice, with the usual disastrous results.

"...try to put the words into practice..."

To be frank, @derek-m, I think you're being rather optimistic about the amount of action that will ensue. I'd love to be proved wrong.

 

A bit more info now published on the department website 

"The Department for Energy Security and Net Zero will provide dedicated leadership focused on delivering security of energy supply, ensuring properly functioning markets, greater energy efficiency and seizing the opportunities of net zero to lead the world in new green industries.

This year, the department will focus on easing the cost of living and delivering financial security by bringing down energy bills and keeping them down - better insulating consumers from external impacts. Longer term objectives include ensuring properly functioning energy markets, coordinating net zero objectives across government and bringing external delivery expertise to bear on its portfolio of major projects.

The Department for Energy Security and Net Zero is focused on the energy portfolio from the former Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (BEIS)."

How many unicorns and rainbows can you fit into one paragraph?  

Posted by: @jeff

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delivering security of energy supply, ensuring properly functioning markets

So what have Clarke, Leadsom. Sharma, Kwarteng, Rees-Mogg and Shapps being doing since 2016 when BEIS was formed, as they have all led that department?

Posted by: @abernyte

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How many unicorns and rainbows can you fit into one paragraph?  

Posted by: @jeff

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delivering security of energy supply, ensuring properly functioning markets

So what have Clarke, Leadsom. Sharma, Kwarteng, Rees-Mogg and Shapps being doing since 2016 when BEIS was formed, as they have all led that department?

I am utterly convinced the self-interest rampant in Westminster gets in the way of Government doing a good job for the wider populace. However, I have to keep my cynicism realistic and in this case I have to be fair. Whether as a result of or in spite of the efforts of BEIS, we have certainly enjoyed a consistent supply of energy despite wildly fluctuating factors that have threatened to overtake us. It's a pretty important baseline - that customers should not experience blackouts or brownouts - and so very easy to forget it might not always be so.

Whether or not the Government is claiming credit for the good planning of others is a separate question and not one I'm going to get into. Just pointing out that in this country we are fortunate to actually have a secure and reliable energy supply. Long may it remain that way.

Posted by: @jeff

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Posted by: @majordennisbloodnok

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Posted by: @derek-m

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Posted by: @jeff

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...

"A new Department for Energy Security and Net Zero, has been tasked with securing our long-term energy supply, bringing down bills and halving inflation. The move recognises the significant impact rising prices have had on households across the country as a result of Putin’s illegal war in Ukraine, and the need to secure more energy from domestic nuclear and renewable sources as we seize the opportunities of net zero."

As usual the words sound quite good, and are in the correct order, but I suspect they will have the same set of idiots try to put the words into practice, with the usual disastrous results.

"...try to put the words into practice..."

To be frank, @derek-m, I think you're being rather optimistic about the amount of action that will ensue. I'd love to be proved wrong.

 

A bit more info now published on the department website 

"The Department for Energy Security and Net Zero will provide dedicated leadership focused on delivering security of energy supply, ensuring properly functioning markets, greater energy efficiency and seizing the opportunities of net zero to lead the world in new green industries.

This year, the department will focus on easing the cost of living and delivering financial security by bringing down energy bills and keeping them down - better insulating consumers from external impacts. Longer term objectives include ensuring properly functioning energy markets, coordinating net zero objectives across government and bringing external delivery expertise to bear on its portfolio of major projects.

The Department for Energy Security and Net Zero is focused on the energy portfolio from the former Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (BEIS)."

 

Well that fills me with a great deal of confidence. 🙄 

It is really a clinically rather interesting word salad, on the basis of which I suspect the writer needs to start taking the haloperidol sooner rather than later. Notice the robotic, monotonous and obligatory use of the tricolon, a device that exists endures and excels splendidly in Shakespeare ('We few, we happy few, we band of brothers') and the Bible ('And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three'), but in its official bloated and convoluted form in government Newspeak, it numbs, dumbs and stupefies the reader into a state of eternal fugue. It promotes, supports and delivers world class nonsense. Or to put it more succinctly, it is pure twaddle.