Posted by: @derek-m

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What I find particularly annoying is that whenever our government comes up with some scheme, it not only ends up cost us taxpayer's more, but often also the customer.

Human nature I'm afraid.  To be honest I'm not sure its at all easy to design a subsidy scheme that wont somehow be abused.  It probably doesn't help that our particular government is ideologically opposed to market intervention and wants to do everything on a shoestring, so those tasked with designing it have their hands firmly tied behind their backs.  I also fear that few, if any, have any kind of engineering/science background or have actually tried to go through the process themselves so the industry can all to easily pull the wool over their eyes.  It would be interesting to compare with what other countries do, I feel certain that some must make a success of incentive schemes but I don't have the evidence to prove it.  What we do know is that almost everywhere else in Europe is way ahead with HP adoption.

To some extent that's why I am opposed to the regulations in this sector, which go way beyond those that apply to gas and oil for no good reason at all other than to 'support' the subsidy.  The fact that PD is ties to MCS is an absolute disgrace and should never have been allowed to happen, but MCS it appears were allowed to write themselves in (probably because nobody noticed what was happening).

My personal view is that rebalancing gas and electricity prices is the key, electricity is artificially penalised at present and gas favoured and NOW is the perfect time to rebalance as prices come down.  That, however, would require a degree of thought and agreement that i doubt exists.

@cathoderay

I remember reading an article several years ago, about the amount of available energy from the ocean currents flowing around the British Isles, being sufficient to provide our total energy needs.

Whilst water and electricity can 'play nicely' together, that is not the case when the water contains impurities. There is also the more abrasive undersea environment to consider along with the various forms of wildlife that could be affected. I think sea turbines are still being developed and tested, but they are nowhere near the state of development as wind turbines and solar panels.

At the end of the day it is all down to cost, but I do expect that there may be some sea turbines, for base load, in the energy mix.

@jamespa

Some re-balancing of gas and electricity prices has already taken place, since electricity prices are 3 times higher, whilst gas has been increased by a factor of 5. There is also a limit as to how much re-balancing could be carried out, whilst much of the electricity supply is produced by burning gas, where it requires between 2 and 3 kWh of gas, to generate 1 kWh of electricity.

If Liz Truss were still Prime Minister, you may have been able to convince her to make gas the same price as electricity, but I doubt you would have much success with any other government, and they certainly will not be bringing the price of electricity down to the price of gas.

Good luck with that one. 🙄 

Posted by: @derek-m

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If Liz Truss were still Prime Minister, you may have been able to convince her to make gas the same price as electricity, but I doubt you would have much success with any other government, and they certainly will not be bringing the price of electricity down to the price of gas.

I wouldn't expect price equality, but currently 'green' taxes all fall on electricity whereas electricity, if used to drive a heat pump, is by far the cleaner fuel.  If electricity were just 2.5 times the price of gas, a pretty small adjustment, the running cost case for heat pumps would be much easier.

According to national grid gas made up 41% of our electricity, wind 29.9%, nuclear 15%, solar and biomas 5% each, in the past year.  So whilst its true that a large proportion comes from gas more comes from non fossil fuel sources.  Electricity has been getting steadily cleaner year on year.

Posted by: @jamespa

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Posted by: @kev-m

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and an edict to follow the manufacturer's design and installation guidelines will cover most of it.

 

Thats dangerous unless very carefully worded.

The time to sort issues out is before final payment for the system. If it were a house, the building inspector would come in and beat everyone up and refuse to sign the work off. In cases such as air tightness he would require a report from an independent specialist. Yes, the customer pays, but has the benefit of the assurances that the standards are met.

Phil

Posted by: @cathoderay

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I am sure you are very erudite but I have to say your very long answer to my very simple question (post or re-post or link to the plot showing amps energy or whatever it is you are monitoring) leaves me even more baffled.

I show the temperature cycles, you ask about the electric, I say the electric cycles like the temperature, you continue….it’s all simple.. watch John cantor. 

Posted by: @jamespa

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Posted by: @derek-m

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If Liz Truss were still Prime Minister, you may have been able to convince her to make gas the same price as electricity, but I doubt you would have much success with any other government, and they certainly will not be bringing the price of electricity down to the price of gas.

I wouldn't expect price equality, but currently 'green' taxes all fall on electricity whereas electricity, if used to drive a heat pump, is by far the cleaner fuel.  If electricity were just 2.5 times the price of gas, a pretty small adjustment, the running cost case for heat pumps would be much easier.

According to national grid gas made up 41% of our electricity, wind 29.9%, nuclear 15%, solar and biomas 5% each, in the past year.  So whilst its true that a large proportion comes from gas more comes from non fossil fuel sources.  Electricity has been getting steadily cleaner year on year.

I'm afraid it is not quite that simple when one looks at the big picture.

So if every household in the country switches to a heat pump before next Winter, how many GWh's of electricity do you think would be required to supply all these new heat pumps? Where is all this extra electricity going to come from? I doubt that the present remaining gas fired power stations could supply it, so it would mean running the few coal fired power stations still operational. What do we do if there is insufficient gas and coal fired power stations to meet demand.

What would then be the percentage of fossil fuel generated electricity? What would be its cost?

In their usual fashion the World leaders have kicked the can down the street until it has almost hit the wall at the end, urged on by their friends in the fossil fuel industries. They are now trying to play catch up with things that they should have been doing 20 or even 30 years ago.

To be fair it is not totally their fault, it is those pesky voters to blame as well, I mean who would vote for a government who pushed up the price of gas when there is so much floating around that they are almost giving it away, because some idiots say we need to build a load of big windmills in the North Sea. Come on, let's get real folks. 🙄 

Posted by: @jamespa

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Posted by: @derek-m

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If Liz Truss were still Prime Minister, you may have been able to convince her to make gas the same price as electricity, but I doubt you would have much success with any other government, and they certainly will not be bringing the price of electricity down to the price of gas.

I wouldn't expect price equality, but currently 'green' taxes all fall on electricity whereas electricity, if used to drive a heat pump, is by far the cleaner fuel.  If electricity were just 2.5 times the price of gas, a pretty small adjustment, the running cost case for heat pumps would be much easier.

According to national grid gas made up 41% of our electricity, wind 29.9%, nuclear 15%, solar and biomas 5% each, in the past year.  So whilst its true that a large proportion comes from gas more comes from non fossil fuel sources.  Electricity has been getting steadily cleaner year on year.

An adjustment in the relative prices of electricity and gas would be the most effective way to encourage heat pumps.  2.5 times would help but if electricity were twice the price of gas and we had Octopus-like installation prices there would be a real financial incentive to install heat pumps.  It wouldn't be acceptable to increase the price of gas by that much in one go but maybe ASHP users could have cheaper electricity? 

Look at EVs.  When they were more expensive to buy but a lot cheaper to run, demand increased.  Now they are still more expensive to buy but running costs are approaching parity with ICE cars, demand is falling.  ASHPs are much more expensive to buy and a bit more expensive to run than gas CH so it's no surprise there is little demand. 

Posted by: @derek-m

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I'm afraid it is not quite that simple when one looks at the big picture.

So if every household in the country switches to a heat pump before next Winter, how many GWh's of electricity do you think would be required to supply all these new heat pumps? Where is all this extra electricity going to come from? I doubt that the present remaining gas fired power stations could supply it, so it would mean running the few coal fired power stations still operational. What do we do if there is insufficient gas and coal fired power stations to meet demand.

What would then be the percentage of fossil fuel generated electricity? What would be its cos

That is an argument which has been made before, and will be made again by those who seek to frustrate efforts to mitigate the impact of climate change for their own personal gain.  It leads logically to doing nothing by creating a false chicken and egg situation, with the effects foisted onto our children.

In reality we need both to switch to heat pumps and to grow our capacity to generate electricity from renewable sources.  Neither will happen overnight, but we cannot wait for one to occur to do the other, because we live in a capitalist economy where things are market driven and supply follows demand.  They need to happen more or less at the same time but we cannot expect and do not need a precise match.  If efforts are made to ensure both happen, then the necessary outcome will occur and if a major deviation grows up over time then corrective action can be taken.  However the fact remains that renewable energy is now cheap and has been growing rapidly as a proportion of our output so there is every reason to expect that, as demand grows, so will capacity.

Posted by: @derek-m

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In their usual fashion the World leaders have kicked the can down the street until it has almost hit the wall at the end, urged on by their friends in the fossil fuel industries. They are now trying to play catch up with things that they should have been doing 20 or even 30 years ago.

To be fair it is not totally their fault, it is those pesky voters to blame as well, I mean who would vote for a government who pushed up the price of gas when there is so much floating around that they are almost giving it away, because some idiots say we need to build a load of big windmills in the North Sea. Come on, let's get real folks.  

Yes indeed, the same fossil fuel industries that argue against growing renewable sources of heating because the grid 'won't' keep up, and are  campaigning for hydrogen ready boilers (which are a complete nonsense) to prolong an industry that needs to be killed off as soon as we possibly can because the consequences of not doing so are far bigger than any of imagine.  We all need to call them out.

Posted by: @kev-m

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An adjustment in the relative prices of electricity and gas would be the most effective way to encourage heat pumps.  2.5 times would help but if electricity were twice the price of gas and we had Octopus-like installation prices there would be a real financial incentive to install heat pumps.  It wouldn't be acceptable to increase the price of gas by that much in one go but maybe ASHP users could have cheaper electricity? 

Look at EVs.  When they were more expensive to buy but a lot cheaper to run, demand increased.  Now they are still more expensive to buy but running costs are approaching parity with ICE cars, demand is falling.  ASHPs are much more expensive to buy and a bit more expensive to run than gas CH so it's no surprise there is little demand. 

Indeed.  The transition to EVs is going, in a decade or so, to be an interesting case study.  Having test driven several, they are simply better cars, end of.  Once range anxiety and any price differential disappears, which is rapidly happening (albeit at the expense of the European motor industry in favour of China), it will be a no brainer.  Imagine if practical EVs had been invented first and somebody came along with this marvellous new invention which involved visiting a special location every time you needed to refuel (as opposed to being refuelled overnight at home), had twice as many parts, was driven by a series of small explosions which made the air smelly, and was more expensive to service, how many do you think would sell?

Unfortunately, unlike EVs, heat pumps are not obviously unequivocally better.  Having said that for many they perhaps have real advantages.  The fact that you can cost effectively heat the house 24*7 and they encourage low temperature heating, which is actually more comfortable, is potentially very attractive to our high-expectation easy-life society.  Fix the electricity/gas price differential at 2-2.5 to 1 and the case is made.  I don't honestly know how much that would 'cost' and what the political hurdles are, but with electricity increasingly being sourced from cheap renewables, it seems reasonable to suppose its possible.  Of course Putin and the other rogues that control the supply will likely immediately drop the price, unfortunately energy is political!

@fazel @alan-m yes setting the WC lower does make it run at a lower target temperature in WC mode. If I try to set it lower than 35c manually it doesn’t go lower. 

Phil

Posted by: @jamespa

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Posted by: @kev-m

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An adjustment in the relative prices of electricity and gas would be the most effective way to encourage heat pumps.  2.5 times would help but if electricity were twice the price of gas and we had Octopus-like installation prices there would be a real financial incentive to install heat pumps.  It wouldn't be acceptable to increase the price of gas by that much in one go but maybe ASHP users could have cheaper electricity? 

Look at EVs.  When they were more expensive to buy but a lot cheaper to run, demand increased.  Now they are still more expensive to buy but running costs are approaching parity with ICE cars, demand is falling.  ASHPs are much more expensive to buy and a bit more expensive to run than gas CH so it's no surprise there is little demand. 

Indeed.  The transition to EVs is going, in a decade or so, to be an interesting case study.  Having test driven several, they are simply better cars, end of.  Once range anxiety and any price differential disappears, which is rapidly happening (albeit at the expense of the European motor industry in favour of China), it will be a no brainer.  Imagine if practical EVs had been invented first and somebody came along with this marvellous new invention which involved visiting a special location every time you needed to refuel (as opposed to being refuelled overnight at home), had twice as many parts, was driven by a series of small explosions which made the air smelly, and was more expensive to service, how many do you think would sell?

Unfortunately, unlike EVs, heat pumps are not obviously unequivocally better.  Having said that for many they perhaps have real advantages.  The fact that you can cost effectively heat the house 24*7 and they encourage low temperature heating, which is actually more comfortable, is potentially very attractive to our high-expectation easy-life society.  Fix the electricity/gas price differential at 2-2.5 to 1 and the case is made.  I don't honestly know how much that would 'cost' and what the political hurdles are, but with electricity increasingly being sourced from cheap renewables, it seems reasonable to suppose its possible.  Of course Putin and the other rogues that control the supply will likely immediately drop the price, unfortunately energy is political!

At least ASHPs keep running as long as you want them to. Imagine having an ASHP that stopped after using 30kWh and required you to faff around with various apps and wait in an online queue before starting it up again an hour or two later.  😉