@david999 In Tesla speak, this is handled by the Gateway and their system is a certified device as far as the DNO’s are concerned. If you haven’t already had a separate earthing rod driven into the soil, you will certainly require one before you can go ‘off-grid’ and use your own solar and / or stored energy. When disconnecting from the grid you will not have an earth connection - but @transparent will be able to fill in all the technical details for this. Regards, Toodles.

I'm pretty sure that @david999  doesn't have a Tesla Powerwall.
But for the sake of others, here's the description of a Gateway-2 from their own product literature

@toodles can you please state...

• does the Gateway communicate across the internet to Tesla's own servers or any other 3rd-party, such as cloud storage?
• does such an internet connection allow Tesla or their agents to upgrade firmware or issue commands to the Gateway and/or attached Powerwall(s) ?

Or is the Gateway solely a local device to which the customer sends commands from an App across WiFi or Bluetooth?

Thanks

@transparent The Tesla Gateway communicates with Tesla’s servers (in Europe I think) and they are able to monitor ALL functions and carry out updates as well as setting permissions and limitations on export etc. When I wished to use the battery as a source of exportable power, I had to contact Tesla EU so that they could set the permissions for this.

So the kit can communicate to Tesla over the network, I can communicate over my wifi and / or via my mobile phone if the network were down, (No Bluetooth though) Several times, the engineers have been here to sort out ‘teething troubles’ (actually installer errors) and they have worked on the kit whilst on the phone to Tesla and they have been monitoring the kit at the same time.

Regards, Toodles.

On one occasion, the Powerwall stopped charging but the Gateway still allowed for the solar power to be used or exported; when the engineer attended, they could not find the cause. The engineer called Tesla who put their internet stethoscope  on its’ chest and detected that a circuit breaker was open; once this was replaced, all was well again😊 Regards, Toodles. 

OK, Got it. Thanks @toodles 

So when you use the App to make a change, the command is actually being sent from Tesla's server.

I believe it's now illegal to import, distribute, supply or install devices which operate like this.

The Product Security and Telecommunications Infrastructure Act (2022) had amendments in April/May '24 to extend its provisions to devices which are grid-tied with export capability (G98).
Further amendments are pending.

It is no longer permitted that grid-tied devices can have their operation interrupted or their configuration altered by a remote 3rd-party.
This is a National Security issue.
It is related to the security of the grid itself.

From now on, if a consumer requires a firmware update for such a device, it must be they who initiate that request, and the ability to do so must be password protected.

If you don't understand why this is so... then that's fine. I'm obviously not going to tell you!

Posted by: @transparent

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OK, Got it. Thanks @toodles 

So when you use the App to make a change, the command is actually being sent from Tesla's server.

I believe it's now illegal to import, distribute, supply or install devices which operate like this.

The Product Security and Telecommunications Infrastructure Act (2022) had amendments in April/May '24 to extend its provisions to devices which are grid-tied with export capability (G98).
Further amendments are pending.

It is no longer permitted that grid-tied devices can have their operation interrupted or their configuration altered by a remote 3rd-party.
This is a National Security issue.
It is related to the security of the grid itself.

From now on, if a consumer requires a firmware update for such a device, it must be they who initiate that request, and the ability to do so must be password protected.

If you don't understand why this is so... then that's fine. I'm not going to tell you!

 

 

The more I read about the possible problems and limitations with home battery storage systems, the more I am convinced that the money would be better spent on national and district systems to help balance and stabilse the grid.

@derek-m we have a huge battery bank built near us and I believe another to be built in preparation for a massive wind farm. We will get an allowance from the production, 2026 I believe but tech is advancing and who knows what’s around the corner.

@transparent Very interesting - we will have to see how things develop then! If Elon is not permitted to fiddle about with my kit, presumably they will have to offer a website that provides all and every update along with support facilities. I can see it is vital that our National Grid is secure and cannot be manipulated via Tesla ‘Back Doors’ so to speak. Will such requirements become mandatory for existing installations then? Ooh Errr (as Mildred from ‘Men from the Ministry’ might have said!) Regards, Toodles.

@derek-m I have purchased shares in Ripple Energy’s Derril Water Solar Park and now in their latest Wind Turbine project - I feel this is going to be more efficient than home kit could ever be - but I am backing both ‘horses’ this way! Regards, Toodles.

@derek-m - this issue only applies to storage batteries and inverters which have export capability.
That's the sort of equipment which @david999 has, and is looking to expand upon.

There's no proposed regulatory constraint of existing equipment.
The amendment concerns the supply-chain, not the end-user.

I am aware of one historical situation when installers were required to revisit customers in whose homes they had installed export-capable devices during the changeover from G59 to G98. But that security threat only affected a particular location of around 300 square miles.

There is no threat to the grid when installing storage batteries which supply the home in off-grid mode.

This sort of battery arrangement would be fine:

But it would still be illegal to supply such equipment if commands and upgrades could be sent to the inverters without the consumer's knowledge or consent.
The system should be capable of autonomous operation without a requirement for a live internet connection.

Remote monitoring of the inverters is still permitted, and may be desirable.
But it shouldn't be forced upon the end-user by a manufacturer/installer as part of warranty terms & conditions.
That would be an 'unfair condition' within the terms of the Consumer Rights Act.

Posted by: @david999

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tech is advancing and who knows what’s around the corner

I do!

That's why I've been asking for these changes!  🤨 

Not all of the required amendments are yet in place.
My MP is aware, as is DESNZ of course.

Government and National Security matters don't come to grinding halt just because Parliament has been proroged.

Posted by: @toodles

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I can see it is vital that our National Grid is secure and cannot be manipulated via Tesla ‘Back Doors’

From a security viewpoint, I doubt that there's any great worry about Tesla per se.
They're a highly reputable company with innovative products.

The problem is that Tesla's own security could be breached, or they may have a rogue employee.

Cyber security requires us to think beyond the initial victim of the attack.
For example, ShinyHunters acquired customer data from both Santander Bank and Ticketmaster in the last three days.
If it were just a matter of those two companies being unable to trade for a few hours whilst they plugged the hole, then so be it.

But the nature of the breach by ShinyHunters is that they seem to have acquired names, addresses and credit card details.
It's what might occur in future by using that data which is of much greater concern.

Returning to the matter of the Electricity grid, there is presently a discrepancy between the security levels applied to grid-access by different means.

The Smart Meter Network is very secure.
It has several layers of restricted access which have been developed over a decade.

Automated Network Management (ANM), which is used by DNOs to communicate with renewable generation sites, is also very secure.
It operates on a private radio network.

In contrast, Smart EV Chargers are a weakness.
Their 'smart' features are completely reliant on an internet link to servers operated by your Energy Supplier.
The chargers have no inbuilt smartness of their own, and no external body who regulates access to the system.

Posted by: @david999

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@derek-m we have a huge battery bank built near us and I believe another to be built in preparation for a massive wind farm. We will get an allowance from the production, 2026 I believe but tech is advancing and who knows what’s around the corner.

Whilst what you state may seem huge compared to a home battery storage system, it is probably just a drop in the ocean compared to the storage capacity required to supply even 10% of the daily demand for just a few hours.