https://4industry.com/manufacturing-glossary/8-pillars-of-tpm/

Posted by: @travellingwave

↑

- but in fact I believe 90% of the value can be gained by just trending flow and return temps -

I use Home Assistant which captures the same data as that displayed in the Vaillant app (no additional hardware needed).  OAT, FT and occasionally power consumption are all that's really needed 95% of the time.  FT and OAT alone would probably suffice!  

@jamespa 

Also a good way to get data- I have had a play with the dongle  that plugs into the Ecodan and integrates to home assistant.

All requires a certain level of tech savvy though. Heatpump should do this stuff out of the box.

Posted by: @travellingwave

↑

Heatpump should do this stuff out of the box.

It has been said that both manufacturers and installers are reluctant to provide too much data too easily for fear of being overburdened with support calls.

I think I can understand this, whilst agreeing that it should be available one way or another.  Better still of course would be if it weren't needed!

Posted by: @jamespa

↑

judging by the questions we get here there definitely is a market for the things you mention, although whether they make money is another matter indeed. 

From what I’m seeing, there’s definitely a growing remedial market.

I know of one company (2-3 full-time 'installers') that has pivoted almost entirely to fault-finding, corrections and optimisation work. There’s also @kenbone (a one-man heat pump legend) who has effectively moved into this space full time.

There’s no obvious shortage of systems needing attention. The bigger question is whether homeowners are prepared (or financially able) to absorb a second hit after already paying for an installation that should have been right the first time.

Posted by: @editor

↑

There’s no obvious shortage of systems needing attention. The bigger question is whether homeowners are prepared (or financially able) to absorb a second hit after already paying for an installation that should have been right the first time.

That sounds like an 'opportunity' for a breed of 'no win, no fee' optimisers who partner with lawyers to sue the installers of faulty systems.  

😀

When Bolton and Watt came into the steam engine market they took a royalty based on the amount of coal saved compared to running a Newcomen engine. Nice business model. Fit heat meter (count shovels of coal)- prove system is bad - fix system take a cut on energy savings.

I wonder what percentage of ‘problem’ Installations are beyond hope and therefore potential lawyer territory - v those that just need setting up properly and maybe a few bigger rads?

My own system definately fell into the latter group - If I had just taken what I was given it would have been poor to average - tweaking controls got it up to average to Ok - A bit of plumbing work costing a few hundred (plus my free labour) got it to pretty good I hope.So for me easier to just crack on than try to take installer to task.

Ive just been looking at a system an ex work colleague has had installed by a heat geek trained (not full heat geek) installer. Really nice install - very neat - Lots of calculations done for the underfloor heating - Blank canvass as full back to brick renovation so free rein on pipe work. Bloody 4 port buffer and controller in the plant cupboard - and more heatmiser controls than you can shake a stick at😡. Will be quite easy to make it right , just bin the buffer and secondary pump and most of the controls. I have just checked the residual pump head on the Vaillant heatpump and more than enough to cope.

To be fair Vaillant own manual is pretty vague and sort of suggests system separation might be a good idea - more to do with frost protection😵‍💫 So I sort of feel for installers - this guy clearly wants to do a good job but probably getting mixed messages.

Not excusing the cowboys by the way.

Of course now it’s a case of either sucking it up or having an awkward discussion with installer and risk a relationship breakdown.

Will certainly be attaching some temp probes once he is up and running.

@travellingwave Sounds like he may be a good installer in the making with a few years of experience under his tool belt.

Posted by: @travellingwave

↑

I wonder what percentage of ‘problem’ Installations are beyond hope and therefore potential lawyer territory - v those that just need setting up properly and maybe a few bigger rads?

If you are prepared to take out a buffer/LLH (or replumb it as a volumiser) and disable third party controls (which is generally possible with appropriate settings), relatively few if what we see here is typical.  There are of course cases where the heat pump is grossly oversized, occasional ones where its undersized, and a few cases where some rads are too small/UFH somehow wrong.  But I would say the vast majority that we see here are controls/buffer and occasionally essentially trivial matters like poor insulation.

The buffer creates a problem however, most installers will say that any warranty is voided if the system is changed, and so that hangs over people.  This is perhaps where the legal angle does come in.

Posted by: @travellingwave

↑

So for me easier to just crack on than try to take installer to task.

Indeed so and what I, more often than not, find myself advocating on this forum when people report problems.  Basically I ask the question, sometimes explicitly sometimes implicitly -do you want to fix it, or do you prefer to spend lots of frustrating time on a complaint that will probably go nowhere?

However only some are willing to attempt to fix it, having been warned by their installer 'dont touch anything' and lacking the confidence and understanding to override this.  I would guess that 50% of the people that I have advised on this forum (which is now a lot of people) appear just to walk away, too nervous (I presume) to go into installer settings.  I also presume that they remain unhappy, tell their friends and mates how terrible heat pumps are, and thus collectively do a lot of damage to the industry.  However I don't think we should hold them accountable, rather we should, IMHO, hold the installer, MCS, and other players in the industry accountable.

So I have finished the book- enjoyed the chapter on heatpump in stone house since that has been my journey as well.

I was very impressed with the CVs of the various contributors at the end - fantastic range of knowledge - Shame MCS or major heat pump brands were not represented or did I miss that bit.

I will be following up some of the links for sure. 

This made my week. An installer did a survey recently and the homeowner pulled out a copy of The Ultimate Guide to Heat Pumps, with two sides of A4 worth of questions ready to go.

Have a look at the photo.

We're talking flow temperatures, radiator balancing, system flush products, cylinder sizing, mixer valves, all cross-referenced against specific pages in the book. This person had genuinely sat down, read it properly and thought hard about their home.

The installer's reaction? He was excited. Answered everything on the spot. Which, honestly, is exactly the right call. 

I'd put money on this install being a success!

From my perspective, putting the book together was an enormous task, but it's great to see the book being used like this. That's the whole point of it... not to make homeowners second-guess their installer but to give them enough of a foundation to have a proper conversation. The best installations happen when both sides understand what good looks like.

The Ultimate Guide to Heat Pumps is available here: https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/the-ultimate-guide-to-heat-pumps-a-comprehensive-resource-for-homeowners/

@editor 

I too had a long list of questions, some of which I pulled from your book.

The sign of a good installer is they are more than happy to discuss this and in many cases welcome it, mine certainly did.

Our installers remarked that it is much easier to manage an install if the home owner understands some of the complexities before installation, especially as it is so invasive, requires a lot more hardware and is nothing like a gas boiler install.

They also appreciated that as we had done our homework, had realised the extent of the works and had prepared all the rooms for easy access. Some of the stories of homes they went to were frankly shocking, clearly from home owners who hadn't done their research and were completely unaware of the complexities of the install!

The knowledge we had gained prior to the install undoubtedly helped with the overall installation outcome, which both we and the installers greatly appreciated.