Posted by: @jamespa

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So I think we should give installers, provided they are transparent, the benefit of the doubt i

Well that's going to be a problem.

Whilst I'd like the benefit of the doubt, I'm not an installer.

Can someone please post the link to the 2026 Installer exhibition we're discussing?

Very funny @transparent.   https://www.installershow.com/

@editor

Posted by: @jamespa

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'Does the Heat Pump industry have a death wish and what can it do about it - a consumer viewpoint',

Posted by: @editor

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I really like this angle… it’s perfect for Installer, because it speaks directly to installers whose livelihoods are on the line. In the new year I’ll speak to the guy who books the talks and panels, and we can shape this into a proper panel session.

I am all in favour of provocative titles that make people pay attention.  However, we also need to be careful.  These shows are meant to encourage networking and promote sales.  If we just throw grenades all the time, we will get a reputation as Moaning Minnies.  It won't lead to anything positive or constructive.  In fact, we are much more likely to be marginalised.  Even worse, the anti-heat pump brigade might seize on our material and use it to substantiate their message  that heat pumps are not viable.

It is much better to have a challenging vision for how things should be and exhort everybody to get there.  By all means highlight examples of where we are falling short, but also show examples of "what good looks like" (as the consultants say).  

Ultimately, we need leaders to take us there.  For all their faults, organisations such as Octopus and Heat Geek are doing that and they are getting traction.

@editor It's easy to say "we don't need cheaper/faster" from your privileged position in the 'able to pay' bracket, but what we really need as a civilisation is rapid decarbonisation, which can only be achieved via mass-market penetration... and the majority of consumers are not 'able to pay' at today's costs of install, even with the currently-generous BUS grant.

600K installs per year achieving a SFP of 3.5 is better for everyone than 100K hitting SFPs of 4+.

Posted by: @editor

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It’s been an eventful few weeks, and I want to thank Richard and Chas once again for stepping in. We feel incredibly fortunate to live rurally and yet have two world-class heating engineers on our doorstep. Calm, methodical, pragmatic and meticulous, every decision they make is grounded in proper calculations and clear thinking. No guesswork, no shortcuts, just solid engineering. It took time to undo the issues, but thanks to Richard’s diagnosis and their combined expertise and dedication, we now have heating restored and, more importantly, our confidence renewed in what professionalism in this industry should look like.

This experience has reinforced just how unforgiving heat pump systems are when design and planning are treated as optional.

It has also clarified our next step: in spring we’ll be undertaking a full heat pump retrofix project. The goal is to create a proper blueprint for reconfiguring a system with microbore, long pipe runs and a large footprint. We want to show homeowners and installers not only what bad looks like, but what good looks like, and how thoughtful design, planning and calculation make all the difference.

We’ll be documenting the journey as openly as possible, because there’s no place for guesswork in this sector. This next project is about showing the right way forward so that homeowners can see it for themselves and hold their installers to higher standards.

What happened? Did you have to ditch the installer who recently ripped out the zoning kit and fitted the FRVs?

Posted by: @ectoplasmosis

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It's easy to say "we don't need cheaper/faster" from your privileged position in the 'able to pay' bracket, but what we really need as a civilisation is rapid decarbonisation, which can only be achieved via mass-market penetration...

I'm assuming you're referring back to this post by @editor?

I think your views are more aligned than you've supposed.

Editor is (correctly) observing that heat-pump installations are far behind the rate required to achieve Net Zero and decarbonisation targets.
You are both wanting to see mass-market penetration.

But the biggest factor which prevents British home-owners from wanting a heat-pump is the feedback from family member, neighbours and work colleagues who've just had one installed.

The poor quality of system design and installation means that the new heat-pump is operating inefficiently.
That results in much higher bills on top of the capital cost of the new equipment.

Even a COP of 3.5 isn't being achieved by a very high proportion of new installations.

Until heat-pumps are being installed properly, then consumers won't be willing to embrace the technology.
Mass-market penetration is impossible to achieve.

@transparent I was replying explicitly to the statement that "we don't need cheaper/faster"... which I disagree with.

Heat Geek's 'Zero Intervention' installs, and Octopus's similar program, are exactly what the UK industry, and society as a whole, needs. This does not by definition mean a 'crappy install', just cheaper and quicker with less disruption, and a slight decrease in SFP as a result... which can be offset with guidance on using ToU tariffs, using optimisers like Havenwise etc.

Posted by: @ectoplasmosis

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@transparent I was replying explicitly to the statement that "we don't need cheaper/faster"... which I disagree with.

Heat Geek's 'Zero Intervention' installs, and Octopus's similar program, are exactly what the UK industry, and society as a whole, needs. This does not by definition mean a 'crappy install', just cheaper and quicker with less disruption, and a slight decrease in SFP as a result... which can be offset with guidance on using ToU tariffs, using optimisers like Havenwise etc.

I think it's a bit more nuanced than that; a hierarchy, if you will, rather than a binary choice.

Primarily, we need more installations that are fit for purpose. There are more people who will pay for an expensive install that works than a cheap one that doesn't, so "it works" trumps "it's cheap" every time.

Once "it works" can be taken as a given, "cheaper" will increase the market penetration, and so will "faster", and I suspect "cheaper" is the more influential. How installs can be made cheaper is, of course, a many-faceted question and you rightly point out some possibilities.

Posted by: @ectoplasmosis

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What happened? Did you have to ditch the installer who recently ripped out the zoning kit and fitted the FRVs?

Because on the Monday morning before he started, we had a fully working system... not efficient, but functional and operational. By Friday afternoon, after a week of chaos and guesswork, we were left with no heating and no hot water, and system (rads and UFH) that had been blasted full of air.

It was a litany of avoidable failings that turned our operational system into one that simply didn’t work. We’ll be unpacking the full story soon on “How Not to Retrofix a Heat Pump”, followed by content that focuses on how a retrofix should be tackled, showcasing exactly what good looks like in practice.

The FRVs themselves are solid enough though, and I’ll be reviewing them soon.

Posted by: @majordennisbloodnok

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I think it's a bit more nuanced than that; a hierarchy, if you will, rather than a binary choice.

Yes, but the nuance in part comes also from the huge range of types of ages, constructions, and quality of buildings in the UK.

Im just going through the Heat Loss Assessor training from Elmhurst and it's started to make me think that there is no standard installation, because there is no simple home.  Even homes which were standard, have been upgraded, extended, sub-divided, repaired etc. etc.

So I think there is a pyramid of projects that range from simple/standard to complex/custom.  You need an installer of a calibre to match your project, simple can be cheap/quick, complex will be more costly/expensive.

So we need a range of standards.  Just like a pair of tailored trousers will fit better, but some people absolutely need a tailor, whereas for most people off the peg is good enough.

@scalextrix, you’re absolutely right: there is no such thing as a truly “standard” UK home. Even two seemingly identical semis on the same street can behave completely differently once you look at insulation levels, airtightness, extensions or how the heating circuits have been messed with over the decades. The idea that one algorithm or “standard install model” can account for all of that variation feels optimistic (I'm being kind with my choice of word).

I like your pyramid analogy: simple-to-complex, with installer calibre matching project complexity. That’s exactly where the conversation around “cheap and fast installs” becomes worrying. Because while there are certainly some homes where a relatively straightforward, low-disruption install could work perfectly well, the danger lies in assuming that every home fits that category. The moment you apply a one-size-fits-all approach to Britain’s Frankenstein housing stock, you start cutting corners without even realising it.

The irony is that the more “standardised” the process becomes, the more pressure there is to treat nuanced projects as if they were simple ones. That’s when you end up with the wrong emitters or systems designed around assumptions rather than measured data.

I think where we all probably agree is that there’s room for efficiency and care, using better digital tools, pre-design modelling and standardised workflows doesn’t have to mean stripping away engineering judgement. But the moment those tools start replacing the installer’s expertise rather than supporting it, we’re in trouble.

Posted by: @ectoplasmosis

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@editor It's easy to say "we don't need cheaper/faster" from your privileged position in the 'able to pay' bracket, but what we really need as a civilisation is rapid decarbonisation, which can only be achieved via mass-market penetration... and the majority of consumers are not 'able to pay' at today's costs of install, even with the currently-generous BUS grant.

600K installs per year achieving a SFP of 3.5 is better for everyone than 100K hitting SFPs of 4+.

I understand where you’re coming from, and I agree that rapid decarbonisation is vital. But here’s the uncomfortable truth from where I sit: the forums here are full of homeowners living with the fallout of rushed, under-designed, corner-cut installations... and that’s not anecdotal. I get emails and DMs every single day from people desperate for help because their “affordable” system now costs a fortune to run, or simply doesn’t heat their home properly.

These are people who’ve spent £10-15K (often their savings) on a technology that was supposed to lower running costs and carbon emissions, only to discover that it’s doing the opposite. Poor design, guesstimated heat loss calculation, undersized radiators, bad pipework, oversized units... we see the same pattern over and over again.

That’s exactly what “cheap and cheerful” gets you in the world of heat pumps. You can slash capital cost, sure, but all you’re really doing is shifting the pain from capex to opex. Instead of paying a little more upfront for a system that’s properly designed and efficient, people end up haemorrhaging money every month on inflated electricity bills.

So yes, the numbers might look great on paper, 600K installs a year sounds like progress, but if a big percentage of those installs are inefficient or unreliable, what have we actually achieved? We’re not decarbonising; we’re disillusioning. 

Until we can get installs done properly, I don't want to see 600,000 heat pumps installed if in five years time 400,000 of those have to get retrofixed.

My honest advice to any homeowner is simple: if you can’t afford to do it properly with the right heat loss calculation, radiator upgrades and cylinder where needed, stick with your boiler until you can. Because getting a heat pump “on the cheap” is the fastest way to end up even worse off.