Posted by: @Anonymous

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Posted by: @majordennisbloodnok

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This is important since you were trying to suggest Havenwise might have changed a setting that stopped the heat pump from communicating with the Internet.

No I am not

I am and was only speaking about the change in operation of the circulation pump. If Havenwise made a change to 2093 option. As you say if that option is available via the internet, it could have been moved from set point to another and not back again.  If the home owner had the function previously to boost room temp, either Havenwise made the change or the owner. I do not know which would be correct - or the boost function never worked prior to to having Havenwise?

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And we come back full circle.

If it was just a problem of Havenwise making a change and then not resetting it, they could still use the API to reverse the change once the customer got in touch. The issue isn't what settings are changed or not, it's that Havenwise couldn't make contact with the heat pump to make any changes.

Their remedial action seems to have been to ask the customer to make a manual change that they themselves would have made through the API so the customer wasn't inconvenienced. In other words, they called on Plan B.

Posted by: @Anonymous

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Posted by: @majordennisbloodnok

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No. It doesn't have control; it has (shared) access to use the control. A fine distinction but important since it, like a homeowner, can only make changes the control system allows. Not all settings are exposed to the app or, indeed, Havenwise. It's the same as buying from Amazon; I don't control Amazon; I merely use its interface to influence its operation.

Sorry that just playing with words, the home owner has no control either then, they is just sharing access with the controller as well - sorry that is just bull.  If you can make a change to a running parameter you have control and influence of how the heat pump operates. If Havenheat does not have control how does it save you money by making changes to how it operates.

Just because you don't agree doesn't make an assertion "bull".

In this case, control follows a hierarchy.

1. The heat pump is controlled by a system integrated into the physical box and someone in the house can change pretty much all settings via the in-house display unit. There may also be some dip switches as well but the point is that control is local.
2. The manufacturer, in this case Samsung, has built in an extension to that - a remote control, if you like - that has the heat pump checking the manufacturer's web services regularly to see if any config changes are requested (or, of course, if any request is made for data to be read). Under normal circumstances it will fulfil those requests but, unless badly designed, it should still reject any requests that could result in conflicts - settings which should never exist together at the same time, for instance. In this case it's easy to see the actual control is separate from the requests being made.
3. The requests being made remotely are also wrapped up in security; the manufacturer's account will have access to a wider range of settings than an installer who in turn is likely to be able to change more than an end user. This is important since it demonstrates Havenwise doesn't have "control"; it's only working within the confines of the account they're given to work with.

You're thinking of control as binary - either you've got it or you haven't. That's not accurate. Instead, it's the case of varying levels of access to settings and that's different. You're a user on this site and can post stuff, but that doesn't mean you have control of this site. Only @editor has that, and even then there are things that can be done to the site's configuration that can't be achieved within the software itself. None of this is just playing with words; those words matter.

The wider general public are going to face very similar issues if they sign up to the Demand Side Response (DSR) remote control over home appliances which DESNZ are busy building.

They will initially target DSR at heat-pumps - turning them off during times of high demand.

In practice the off/on commands will be sent by a licensed agent, rather than the Government of course.
A company such as Havenwise might well wish to apply for a licence.

The consumer's account with their Energy Supplier will be credited for having taken part in a demand-reduction period.

But there's a lot of protocols which need to be considered.

• What should happen if the consumer manually re-starts their heat-pump partway through the off-period which the Agent had intended?
• What happens if a fault prevents the Agent from sending the 'Switch back on' command at the end of the period?
• How does an Agent stagger the 'Switch back on' commands in an area, so that there isn't a demand-surge on the local grid?

What @broadsman  has shared here today provides an insight to the complexity of operations which each Agent will need to develop.

The Plan-B solution from Havenwise was to send a WhatsApp message.
Each Agent will need to build an IT system which copes with system-faults, reverts to sensible defaults, and makes allowances for households with vulnerable occupants.

Alternatively, the general public might decide not to take up the DSR option.

It may not take many 'failures' being reported in the press to swing public opinion against the scheme.

Thank you for tagging me @editor ! And thank you for the kind words @broadsman !

Last night we received an automatic alert in our systems that @broadsman initiated a heating boost in the Havenwise app, but the heat pump wasn't activating like we would expect within the first 10 minutes. There was no connection issue at any point. We continued to receive data throughout, which is how our systems picked up the anomaly.   

We reached out to check-in and identify what might be the cause. We believe it was due to FSV2093 being set to 1 which caused a conflict where the Samsung logic prevented the compressor from starting. We asked @broadsman to update the setting, which allowed the compressor to start and operations resumed normally. 

Some excellent points raised earlier on the thread. It's correct that some settings can only be changed locally on the Samsung controller, as the manufacturer put some guardrails on what they deem safe to be remotely controlled. FSV2093 is one of them. 

It's fantastic to see the kind words of @broadsman ! We're very proud of this example which shows that the Havenwise app allows easy control by the user (in this case a heating boost) and the customer support that backs it all up at any time of day. 

Fun fact: I started Havenwise some time ago together with a guy named Alex. It was Alex himself who reached out yesterday evening to @broadsman and got everything sorted in 10 minutes. 

@hcas Excellent service, I have 2 clients about to engage your software for their systems and it is going on my new home system late this summer all connected to Ecodan's. (I am interested if mine can be connected to my solar and batteries as well to control the whole systems together?)

Also where credit is due I would like to say that a response in 10 mins is about 48hrs faster than most installation companies and thats if they respond at all if you follow a lot of topics on here. 

Following on from other posts here, perhaps additional interface controls such as Havenwise are not for everyone but in my opinion as a so called expert in ASHP's given the complex standard of manufactures controls, I think it is a very good option for a large part of the market. Most clients don't want to know, learn or change their controls, they just want it to work and with Havenwise keeping an eye what else would they need? 

Posted by: @ashp-bobba

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@hcas Excellent service, I have 2 clients about to engage your software for their systems and it is going on my new home system late this summer all connected to Ecodan's. (I am interested if mine can be connected to my solar and batteries as well to control the whole systems together?)

I'd be interested to understand this further too, as Havenwise is something that I'm considering subscribing to after my forthcoming heat pump installation.

We're on an EV tariff with a 7p rate between 23:30 and 5:30 overnight, during which we fully charge the batteries and, for most months of the year, can run from the stored batteries and the top-ups generated through the day from solar.  Is the Havenwise solution capable of identifying when the heat pump will be running from stored battery power, rather than the grid, during the peak hours, as the effective cost of generation of these is different at any point in time?

If not, would it require a workaround to create an artificial tariff to simulate this? (e.g. create a tariff of 7p from 23:30 to, say, 18:00 to estimate the drain of the battery on a particular day)

@sheriff-fatman 

Good post. I am also considering Havenwise for the same reasons as you, although without the EV.