Posted by: @editor

@kev-m, do you know what the price of hydrogen will be - will it be closer to gas than electricity?

@editor, I don't but it won't be cheap.  Green hydrogen uses electricity and then has to be transported and stored. Blue hydrogen starts with gas and needs energy and manufacturing infrastructure as well as transport, storage and carbon capture. I can see pure H2 being more than electricity.  I think it will be a CH4/H2 mix to start with though? 

Mars second info graphic is useful. I can see H2 being useful for large industrial processes. But not for cars or homes. Homes H2 boilers would operate at a maximum 20% H2, 80% CH4. Higher % to this means lower calorific value. Higher pressure doesn’t help. So you are still burning fossil fuels. So a step. But not a big enough step. ASHPs are a better answer. Some for EVs vs fuel cells. 70% loss in creating and compression and transport of H2 compared to using electric in BEVs. So why bother?  BEVs can be used for V2G in the future to help balance the grid. Case closed. 

Hi Julian,

I'm afraid I cannot see that the 85% of UK homeowners who are on mains gas being convinced by your arguments, and that they would be willing to spend an arm and a leg to install a system that will probably be more expensive to run. If ASHP's were so financially viable then the uptake in the UK would have been much higher than it has been.

Whilst I try to be an optimist and hope that everyone will do their best to reduce their energy usage, I am also a realist and know that not everyone shares my desire.

The 100% hydrogen trial in Fife next year should give a better idea.

Starting with 300 existing homes being converted to run 100% on green Hydrogen for cooking and heating. 

Further trial of 100% Hydrogen village in 2025 and in a town by 2030 is the current government roadmap.

This is in addition to the 20% hydrogen mix activities that are going on. Town gas had up to 60% hydrogen in the mix. 

Of course this may change with the upcomming Heat and Building strategy. 

Bloomberg NEF have calculated green hydrogen costs will fall below blue hydrogen by 2030, and fall below the current price of gas by 2050 on a energy equivalent basis in many areas of the world. Whether that is realistic and on what scale is another matter. 

I am not sure either way about Hydrogen, as it may come down mostly to a political decision in the short term at least as to how much effort is put into Hydrogen heating and how it appears in the Heat and Building Strategy due this year. Boris may yet decide to bet big on the UK hydrogen industry in addition to ashp. He will already be thinking about the next election. 

@derek-m the only way to out gas will be to make it expensive. Move the industry costs for carbon off electricity and onto gas. From my understanding around 25% of electricity prices are these levys. Assuming 15p thats a good 4p - putting that onto gas would basically make it untenable and in the same swoop make heat pumps much more affordable to run. 

Hi Batalto,

That may seem a common sense approach, though I somehow doubt that the 85% of homeowners on mains gas would agree with you. Assuming that your suggestion is carried out and everyone converts from gas to ASHP's, what do you think would then happen to the cost of electricity?

Don't forget the government is already going to lose a great deal of revenue from the present taxes on petrol and diesel as it forces the change to electric vehicles. Probably one of the reasons why electricity prices are being allowed to increase.

As you have stated previously, you expect to get your ASHP installation fully funded by the taxpayers, and may even make a slight profit. I think that you should be grateful for your present good fortune and concentrate on reducing your energy consumption as much as possible.

@jeff can you share the link for the 100% H2 trial?

I am surprised given this YouTube video I watched a few months ago. About energy value in H2, leakage and pressure  

Hi Julian,

I appreciate you have invested in an ASHP and EV's, so are fully committed to an electrical future.

I myself prefer to keep an open mind and explore all the available technologies.

Thanks for providing the link to the video, which lead me to further videos where people from BEIS and BP, along with others, discussed the benefits and limitations they are dealing with to help create a Hydrogen infrastructure around the world. There appears to be a lot of work going on, so it's not just a flash in the pan.

Hi @derek-m I read Chemical Physics at Uni so I like to follow the science, real research and engineering.  It is all about the investment vs return and CO2 reduction.  H2 can contribute, but at what level of investment?  And if the energy value of H2 is 1/3 of CH4 plus the conversion losses.....  Once could understand why a large oil/chem firm like BP might want to work on H2.

Anyway I think sharing the research and questioning the details is the scientific way to get a better solution.  What has to be better for everyone 🙂

@julianc

https://www.sgn.co.uk/H100Fife

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/fife/1876438/first-1000-fife-hydrogen-powered-homes-could-be-connected-by-winter-2022/

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications/amended-project-direction-h100-fife-sgn

Interesting as as aside i am visiting my mum in Gloucestershire this weekend. Digging up the gas pipes to the whole village up to the meter, engineer mentioned to my mum that it will be compatible with hydrogen boiler in the future. 

Thanks @jeff

Definitely interesting and worth following. 

@derek-m if gas remains the cheapest method of heating, no one will switch. That's just straight fact. Gas heating has to be made more expensive in comparison to electric.

I moved to ASHP as it should lower my heating costs when tied to solar, battery and a highly insulated home. The interesting thing on electric is that the UK actually uses the same amount now as it did the 90s. Energy efficiency has drastically lowered the KW per person demand. In the end the grid will need to be adapted to provide more base load. For me, nuclear is the clear choice until such time as better storage for renewables comes along and vehicle 2 grid systems. 

If I was the government I'd start by mandating all new houses have 1kw of solar panels and 2kw of batteries. This would even out the 7pm peak loads and reduce overt demand in the day