Posted by: @grahamf

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@editor I hope you have at least a partially working heating system for the winter?

@pirate-rich spent another full day with us today, joined by @chas-b, working tirelessly to get all the air out of the system. It was an incredible effort, and we’re hugely grateful for their time, dedication and determination to get things done properly. They also repiped much of the internal system and added a fill-and-flush valve along with an air release valve.

If more heating engineers approached their work with the same attitude and care as Rich and Chas, the heat pump industry in the UK would look very different indeed.

Thanks to them we’ll have heating this winter.

PS - here’s what we were left dealing with: https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/why-air-release-valves-and-deaerators-are-non-negotiable/

Posted by: @ashp-bobba

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@editor Oh no, that sound like a disaster, sorry to hear that.

It certainly has been a testing time… but we’re almost there!

Posted by: @editor

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Posted by: @grahamf

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@editor I hope you have at least a partially working heating system for the winter?

@pirate-rich spent another full day with us today, joined by @chas-b, working tirelessly to get all the air out of the system. It was an incredible effort, and we’re hugely grateful for their time, dedication and determination to get things done properly. They also re-piped much of the internal system and added a fill-and-flush valve along with an air release valve.

If more heating engineers approached their work with the same attitude and care as Rich and Chas, the heat pump industry in the UK would look very different indeed.

Thanks to them we’ll have heating this winter.

PS - here’s what we were left dealing with: https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/why-air-release-valves-and-deaerators-are-non-negotiable/

 

Well, what a day it's been! But, I think we cracked the nut that multiple installers haven't been able to so far. Yes, there is still some work to do, but at least you will have a system that will be operational and virtually silent in the coming days until we can revisit a heat pump system next year.

Thank you to you and Kirsten for looking after us today while we designed, re-piped, and refilled the system to remove all the air. Sadly, it transpired that the UFH manifold is in less than good shape, so something that will need to be addressed to have a heating system with longevity.

@pirate-rich there’s a lot to do and plan, and the wish list is getting longer and longer, but I feel more positive than I have in a long time that next year we will finally an efficient and well designed system. It’s going to be a monumental project this spring. Epic!

I was especially frustrated with the lack of knowledge at essentially all levels when I was trying to get to grips with the system that originally came with our new build flat.

At first, when I was reasonably ignorant to the design considerations required in a heat pump install, and before I started thinking about things too much, it all seemed reasonable when it was sold to us.

We'd have a small heat pump inside (no box on the external wall was presented as this big bonus), with a backup electric boiler which should 'basically never be needed', and the whole thing would be 'hot water priority' so that we'd never be short of hot water even on the coldest of days. Even before we moved in, I started to get a bit worried after seeing the actual system in person, however.

When we moved in we ended up having the plumbers around dozens of times to look at the system after multiple days of cold showers and £20+ daily bills in a supposedly cheap-to-run flat. It was at this point that the illusion of competence quickly wore off.

The site manager himself told us that 'heat pumps don't work', so he didn't know what we expected him to do about it. It was built to spec, so at that point it was no longer his problem. The plumbers (and they were plumbers, not heating engineers) had been given a design and just copy-pasted it into every flat in the development. The underfloor heating had been designed by actual engineers, but at no point were they told anything about the rest of the system. They just listed flow rates and temperatures and that was their job done.

Our system had every option left at the factory default. The flow temperature to the underfloor loops was 55°C, and the tiled bathroom floors could become uncomfortable to stand on if left running. When I asked exactly how the system was 'hot water priority', the plumbers looked like deer in the headlights and shrugged their shoulders. They admitted that they hadn't a scooby how the system worked, how it was meant to work, who had designed it, or anything really. They just piped stuff together. The electricians followed some wiring diagrams. Then everyone just crossed their fingers and hoped for the best.

But what really bothers me is that the other new residents in the development, those without my technical mindset, were being fed absolute rubbish. They'd go into the other residents' flats with a smile and an air of authority, listen to their concerns about how much it was costing them, then they'd just tighten up some pipes or something, say 'that should help!' and saunter off to the next one.

By the time it came to deciding on an installer for our replacement system, I had already learned how to do a full heat loss calculation by hand, as well as cross-checked my results with actual energy use over time. I had managed to get hold of the design and spec of our underfloor heating system by buttering up one of the attending engineers (the developer would not allow me to see it), and checked that what was installed matched what was specified through use of a thermal camera. I had redone all the flow rate calculations based on my calculated heat losses, and then finally redone everything in Heat Punk as a final check of my numbers. I had rebalanced the underfloor heating based on the heat loss and properly calibrated the boiler temperature and mixing valve, none of which had been done when the system was handed over to us.

I'd even gone so far as to jury-rig a kind of EMS using Alexa, SmartThings and Tasker. My phone would tell me every hour, based on the outside temperature, just how much energy shortfall the flat had, and how much energy I should let the boiler use to catch up.

I'd been through pretty much every Heat Geek video, as well as read every publicly available bit of info on the design process and had come up with my own set of requirements:

• Remove zone valves, move to open loop.
• No buffer, no low-loss header, not even a volumiser.
• Heat loss of less than 3kW.
• Keep existing hot water heat pump.

We already had the underfloor heating installed, a 300L tank, and the only plumbing that was needed was the piping connecting all the new bits to the old bits. It should be a simple job, really.

That didn't stop more than one of the heating engineers we asked to quote for it from trying to make it sound like the most complicated install ever and quoting us £15k or more. The heat losses we got also came in all over the shop, with one coming in at a little over 7kW. Bonkers. How a competent heating engineer looked at that number when it came out of the calculator and thought 'yeah, seems reasonable', I have no idea. I reverse-engineered their numbers by comparing different rooms and found that they'd somehow used u-value of internal uninsulated stud walls for all the external walls. To be fair to them, they did redo the calculations when I pointed out the error, but how is someone less technically minded than me meant to notice a mistake like that, let alone provide evidence to argue against it?

In the end, the engineer who did the install agreed with all my suggestions and I felt like things were all going right. Despite that, we were nearly left with a system with the wrong temperature probes installed, and which didn't have any expansion vessel plumbed into the heat pump's piping, issues which were left to me to notice. I have sympathy for the installer as he was installing a unit he'd never seen before, but we had actual registered Worcester Bosch engineers on site too for the commissioning, and they didn't pick up on those issues either.

The issues I noticed were all fixed quickly and without any extra cost, but if trained professionals can make these kinds of mistakes, what hope do homeowners have?

@editor please can you me? I am trying to get stories from other individuals who have had poorly designed heat pumps installed which are either not fit for purpose  or costing a lot of money. I want to get more protection for the consumer and my local MP is supportive of taking this to parliament. My experience was shocking and we’re about to enter our third winter with a heat pump that is undersized so will cost a fortune not to warm the house! This is not about being negative about heat pumps but shining a light on installers who should not be getting the grant!

@fiona 

I admire your optimism in regard to what your MP might achieve.

Just to reiterate, if you want to please post some details of your system and house to see if any suggestions can be made for improvements that could be easily implemented.

It's pretty unlikely, albeit not impossible, that your heat pump is undersized and much more likely that some changes to settings or how you use it could improve things.

@Fiona, I really don’t want to disappoint you, but I have to be honest... many homeowners have gone down this route before with MPs and government departments, and unfortunately, we're yet to see a meaningful outcome. The system tends to absorb complaints across all levels rather than act on them. That said, your determination is admirable, and it’s exactly what’s needed if we’re going to keep the pressure on. There are no shortage of people on these forums that would love to see action. Do you just want homeowners in your county/constituency? 

As James said, let’s see if we can help you take some direct action with your own system too. Would you mind starting a new topic outlining your installation, system specs, brand and size of heat pump, and what’s going wrong? There's a lot of people on here that can help identify design issues and that might strengthen your case when you speak to your MP or anyone else.

Thanks both for your responses. We have paid for an independent report (the warranty company asked for this) to ascertain what’s wrong with the system. There appear to be a number of issues the biggest one being it’s apparently undersized as it’s a Nibe so loses kws when it gets below a certain temp? The warranty company have now said they won’t cover us as the system wasn’t working before the installers went into administration! 

With regards to my MP he says it doesn’t need to be people from my own constituency. I’ve now got an installer who is keen to try and make a difference. It would be great to get people from both sides with evidence of the damage poor installers are doing.

I know I might be onto a hiding to nothing but feel so angry about what’s happened to us and how helpless we have felt, I hope more people will start speaking up and hopefully we can make a difference.

I do just want to make it clear that this is not about saying air source heat pumps are useless, it really isn’t and I know if installed by people who know what they are doing and care, they can be fantastic. 

@fiona everything you’ve said resonates with what we hear from so many homeowners.

Please be careful with the installer who’s offered to “make a difference” or fix your system. We recently had that experience ourselves, and the so-called fix made the situation far worse. Before anyone touches your system, make absolutely sure they can show you detailed evidence of what they plan to do, why it’s necessary and examples of similar systems they’ve successfully corrected. It’s not about being sceptical… it’s about protecting yourself from another round of expensive disappointment.

As for the warranty company’s stance, that’s a ridiculously familiar story. The moment an installer folds, the warranty often becomes worthless. This is one of the biggest structural failings in the current setup: warranties, consumer codes and certification bodies all point fingers at each other, and the homeowner ends up stuck in the middle.

Having said that, was your original installer register with HIES? Check your paperwork. You’ll either have a certificate from HIES or RECC.

You’re absolutely right to separate this issue from the technology itself… heat pumps can be brilliant when properly designed, sized and commissioned. The problem isn’t the tech, it’s the lack of accountability and competence across parts of the industry.

If you can, please start a new topic and share your independent report (you can redact any personal details). That’ll help us to look more closely at what’s been done and see if we can suggest some real steps forward.

You’re doing the right thing by speaking up, and even if progress is slow, every story like yours adds weight to the case for reform. 

Posted by: @editor

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Please be careful with the installer who’s offered to “make a difference” or fix your system

I agree with all that @editor says above but particularly this.

By far your best guarantee is peer review through this forum.  If you are willing to post any reports or proposals you will get helpful comments and the rationale will be interrogated.  That's worth a lot on my book at least.

@Fiona I am really sorry to hear about your awful situation.  There are few things worse than being really cold in your own home.

As @jamespa has suggested, I wonder if people on this forum might be able to provide some kind of check on your review report.  If you were willing to share some information, then you might find people's comments would be helpful.

In particular, the statement that your existing NIBE heat pump is undersized is worth confirming, as a replacement would be expensive.  NIBE have a good reputation and come from Sweden, so I would be amazed if their heat pumps worked badly in cold weather.

I am just a customer like you, but I have a system that is working well and a physics degree, so I have at least a theoretical understanding of the subject.  I would be more than happy to review any documentation, if that would be helpful.