Compensation controls are as sophisticated as they can be as they load match, and cannot be improved, other than the interface.

Whats lacking is an understanding as to what and why they do what they do. This is what is the missing information

Posted by: @alec-morrow

Compensation controls are as sophisticated as they can be as they load match, and cannot be improved, other than the interface.

 

Whats lacking is an understanding as to what and why they do what they do. This is what is lacking..

I seriously hope the interface and automation of the curves will be improved we are in for a terrible transition.

What is lacking is a focus on the customer.

I find a lot of your posts very worrying if you think the manual tweaking of curves is what consumers want.

Think about the customer a bit more... 

I think the best way to focus on the customer (as you rightly suggest) would be to raise the standard of installers. I'm quite enjoying the journey of getting mine set up properly, but the reality is that most people aren't interested in this level of detail. The problem is that my system was installed by someone who didn't have the experience or skills to do a decent job (he talked a good game, but he didn't walk the walk) - just because you're a plumber doesn't mean you are automatically a heat pump expert. The MCS seems to be lip service at best, maybe the manufacturers need to do more. 

@squonk that is indeed the case, but the business model pursued in the U.K. doesn’t encourage that..

There are huge interests in keep installers (I am one) dumbed down and uninformed. Broadly speaking it means you all buy too much and manufacturers benefit with excess sales, and to boot, installers get the blame.

Its a virtuous circle for foreign owned manufacturers, U.K. regs don’t align, they appoint salesmen, who advise on standards, who don’t understand the technology because they aren’t engineers, and hide behind poorly qualified installers who can’t get training because it’s too expensive for the manufacturers, but need to eat so undertake jobs they lack the understanding to do correctly…and don’t get me going in technical help…

Posted by: @jeff

 

I seriously hope the interface and automation of the curves will be improved we are in for a terrible transition.

What is lacking is a focus on the customer.

I find a lot of your posts very worrying if you think the manual tweaking of curves is what consumers want.

Think about the customer a bit more... 

I guess this is what the team behind homely realised, that the curves can be automatically figured out once the indoor temperature response is known. All the customer needs is a ‘heat my house to this temperature as cheaply as possible’ button. And the smarts take care of the rest.

It’s actually incredibly easy to do once you have full, dynamic control over the flow temperature and you’ve learnt the thermal response of the property.

it’s all designed to be done on the internet remotely..bound up with a service fee for maintenance and supervision.. extending service life to 20-25 yrs

you should be worried very worried the heating industry isn’t embracing the technology correctly so everyone will suffer

Posted by: @alec-morrow

Compensation controls are as sophisticated as they can be as they load match, and cannot be improved, other than the interface.

 

Whats lacking is an understanding as to what and why they do what they do. This is what is the missing information

That's not entirely true. As a Control Systems Engineer, I know that self tuning controllers have been available for many years, and could be incorporated into home heating systems, in fact auto adaptation may have some form of self tuning algorithm built into its operation. I will explain more tomorrow.

Posted by: @alec-morrow

it’s all designed to be done on the internet remotely..bound up with a service fee for maintenance and supervision.. extending service life to 20-25 yrs

I know, it’s both unfortunate and fortunate that it’s a cloud platform. As a software/firmware engineer I can see the appeal of doing the whole lot as a cloud system though.

I’m going to give it a go (if/when the integration with the Carel pCO controllers arrives) - the fact that the system can know the upcoming electric pricing when on a TOU tariff, coupled with the thermal response of the property and the weather forecast is just genius. It can make a decision whether to load compensate before the person arrives home (to raise from a setback) or just roll with WC and let the temp return more slowly. True optimisation without the homeowner needing to do anything.

Another benefit, the system could send a push notification to the users phone if it senses the internal temperature is approaching the set point - ‘how are you finding the temperature, too hot, too cold, just right’ - then it can bump the curves or adjust the WC in another way for that specific combination of season and weather forecast.

The manufacturers will never get this HMI part of their controllers correct, they just don’t get it. Take a look at Grant (Chofu) - fantastic hardware, shocking in-home-controller. LG and Samsung seem to be the pinnacle in terms of UI, but more often that not, those controllers are hidden away and the customer ends up using a stupid nest 😀

@derek-m vaillant controls already are self adapting…probably mitsubishi and viessmann…

Just because they aren’t in the U.K. doesn’t mean they don’t exist!

@hughf all this exists on viessmann controllers and vaillant, have a look at the installation manuals. Peak load pricing is not unique to the U.K., it exists or will exist as tool everwhere..

Dint waste your time designing something that already exists but is poorly understood and promoted..

i guess this is the problem of the U.K.. we think we are trailblazing a future, but really we just don’t appreciate or understand what’s really going on…

Leaving the EU, anyone?

Posted by: @alec-morrow

@hughf all this exists on viessmann controllers and vaillant, have a look at the installation manuals. Peak load pricing is not unique to the U.K., it exists or will exist as tool everwhere..

 

Dint waste your time designing something that already exists but is poorly understood and promoted..

 

i guess this is the problem of the U.K.. we think we are trailblazing a future, but really we just don’t appreciate or understand what’s really going on…

Leaving the EU, anyone?

 

 

It’s not much use if it exists in a controller that’s buried away somewhere inaccessible and the homeowner is left unsure how to use it. Technology is only beneficial if it’s easy to use and easy to understand. Homeowners understand ‘turning the heating up’ - whether that’s simply turning up a stat, or bumping the WC curve up, or adjusting it’s slope, or switching to load compensation for a short period, it’s all irrelevant to the homeowner. They just want to be warm and it to cost the least amount.

No-one would have thought that Apple could massively disrupt the mobile phone industry but they did, and they did it by making stuff easier to use.

To add to the counter point, there are plenty of dumber controllers out there that don’t support advanced WC, auto adaption, load comp, etc. And it’s these cheaper units that are being installed with on/off stats. This needs to change, and if it’s easier for installers to understand and make the change then that’s a good thing in my book.

@hughf the truth is we need a whole new trade called to support the technology..

Why Liz Truss and Kwartang don’t jump on that I have no idea!