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Request for feedback on where we're at with our quest to get an ASHP or ideas.

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(@giryan)
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Joined: 1 month ago
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Topic starter  

So, as I mentioned in Introductions a while ago we're nearly a year into a Retrofit process, with no actual work done to show for it.

The delay is frustrating, but I'm quite glad we've not had a bad ASHP install done at least 🙂

When we started the retrofit process we knew we wanted to look at replacing the old loft insulation with a new deeper insulation, insulation under the suspended floors of the house, and replacing our Combi boiler with a heat pump.
We're already in the process of upgrading the windows so didn't include that.
So far as part of the retrofit we've had a some surveys done so we do have some ideas about the current state of things.

We have a large 5 bed detached house, built around 1910.(250m2 ish floor area)
There's a partially suspended floor on the ground floor with nothing but a void under most of it so you can feel it being cold at floor level.
We have a solid walls, of the style of two skins of bricks style that was normal for the period(about 225-245 mm deep)
Loft insulation is present across all of the loft, but it's old (maybe ~20years), and very dirty and not as deep as would currently be installed(I think it's 150/160mm)

Currently the radiator situation is not good, and we've even been using an electric oil filled radiator in our living room, because while we have an Aga which keeps some of the house maybe too hot, and the living room never really gets warm. Pipework to the current radiators through out the house is microbore, although from some bits I've seen under the floow there is larger pipework there (22mm maybe)

MCS heat loss report wise I'm not sure what particular details would be super useful. the summary figures are:
Output at designed external temperature: 19.1 kW
Maximum designed flow temperature: 45°C
heat source required doing 18.8KW at -3.76C
Recommended heat pump is a Heliotherm S18 L-M-CC
Almost all of the radiator are down as undersized, and it recommends increasing the size of all of them

We've had one quote for an ASHP is for a Vaillant aroTHERM PLUS 10kW with a second cascaded, upgrading the rads etc.

We would like to put UFH in the rooms with suspended floors, and I think it makes sense to do that with the ASHP, but haven't had quotes for that bit yet.

Happily the Retrofit co have recently acknowledged that things have not gone as they would expect, and seem to have picked up somewhat 🙂

Sorry for the pretty long woolly post, I think most of the info is here so I'm going to post, and if there's useful things I can add I can add them later

thanks
Matt



   
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bontwoody
(@bontwoody)
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Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 936
 

Well done on sorting out the insulation first Matt. Is the heat loss figure before or after all your proposed changes?


House-2 bed partial stone bungalow, 5kW Samsung Gen 6 ASHP (Self install)
6.9 kWp of PV
5kWh DC coupled battery
Blog: https://thegreeningofrosecottage.weebly.com/
Heatpump Stats: http://heatpumpmonitor.org/system/view?id=60


   
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(@jamespa)
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Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 3327
 

Posted by: @giryan

Output at designed external temperature: 19.1 kW

Are you going to insulate those solid walls and the loft at all  If so this figure is crazily high and a design based on it will likely perform rather badly.


4kW peak of solar PV since 2011; EV and a 1930s house which has been partially renovated to improve its efficiency. 7kW Vaillant heat pump.


   
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(@giryan)
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Joined: 1 month ago
Posts: 5
Topic starter  

@bontwoody It's assuming that the loft insulation is done as that's something we're definitely doing, listed as 2023 building regs/0.13 U value. 
The ground floor is listed as it currently is: Suspended floor at 1.75U, and the solid sections at 1.20

We don't want to dig out the solid portion of the ground floor to re-do it all, and exactly what will happen in the suspended floor is kind of up in the air, dependent on what happens UFH/insulation-wise.



   
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(@giryan)
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Joined: 1 month ago
Posts: 5
Topic starter  

@jamespa changing the walls is not on the cards for now.
While it's not a listed property it's a characterfull brick which stands out in our street, and so we don't want to hide all of that behind external insulation.
Interior insulation is something that's not quite totally ruled out, but we're not really up for literally gutting the entire house to insulate every internal wall, and as far as I understand only doing interior insulation in portions is not something you can reasonably do, due to making cold sections which make damp, etc..



   
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bontwoody
(@bontwoody)
Noble Member Contributor
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 936
 

@giryan 

Im with James in that the heat loss is very high and you need to do anything you can to get that down. Internal wall insulation would be something I would definitely consider. Its unfortunate that you dont really have any good usage figures to sanity check the calculated heat loss.


House-2 bed partial stone bungalow, 5kW Samsung Gen 6 ASHP (Self install)
6.9 kWp of PV
5kWh DC coupled battery
Blog: https://thegreeningofrosecottage.weebly.com/
Heatpump Stats: http://heatpumpmonitor.org/system/view?id=60


   
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(@jamespa)
Illustrious Member Moderator
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 3327
 

Posted by: @giryan

@jamespa changing the walls is not on the cards for now.
While it's not a listed property it's a characterfull brick which stands out in our street, and so we don't want to hide all of that behind external insulation.
Interior insulation is something that's not quite totally ruled out, but we're not really up for literally gutting the entire house to insulate every internal wall, and as far as I understand only doing interior insulation in portions is not something you can reasonably do, due to making cold sections which make damp, etc..

Ok. It still seems high tbh.  Particularly if you do anything to improve the floors.  My 200sq m house of similar basic construction with no floor insulation, partial wall insulation and good loft insulation was assessed as 16kW by two full 3hr surveys, but is actually 7kW.  I would check the figures, ensure they account for the upgrades, and particularly question air changes which have likely been set at 2-3 but, unless it's draughty, may in fact be closer to 0.5-1.

You really don't want to install a 20kW pump if in fact your house is only perhaps 10-12.  That said a cascade could well be ok provided that it's directly connected and doesn't involve buffer/llh/phe between heat pump and emitters.

My advice is check well before you leap, people here will provide suggestions.

 


This post was modified 1 hour ago by JamesPa

4kW peak of solar PV since 2011; EV and a 1930s house which has been partially renovated to improve its efficiency. 7kW Vaillant heat pump.


   
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(@giryan)
Active Member Member
Joined: 1 month ago
Posts: 5
Topic starter  

Thanks both, yeah, I was thinking they sounded like big heat pumps. I do struggle with what all of the different similar sounding numbers mean though, before the process started I started looking at ASHP with numbers that were the same as the gas boiler, and then got really surprised at the sheer size of 30-50Kwh heat pumps 🙂

Usage wise I do have some data:

For 2024
Our gas use was 22000kwh 
And I just realised I also have some data on other energy use for heat related bits too. 
Our immersion heater used 1870Kwh of electricity
And I looked and in addition to turning it on and off the smart plug I have the electric radiator on said it used 1373Kwh

With the KwH/2900 rule of thumb I spotted somewhere? that would be 8.7 ? I'm not sure if that's actually a good number though?

We did have an air permeability survey, which I realise I missed that off the original post too 😅
Looking that up the numbers from it are: 9.36 m3/hr/m2@50pa, 7.46 ACH 

But that number is really high compared to the 1-2 from the MCS and so I'm not sure if that is comparable with air changes number that the MCS calculation uses? 

The house does feel drafty, and fixing that's definitely on the list too. A lot of what was highlighted was from suspended floor, loft and windows, which are part of the works.



   
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