@technogeek, you raise several fair points.

You’re absolutely right that when heat pumps are designed and installed properly, they can be excellent. I also agree that retrofit is where most of the complexity lies, but new builds are constantly being butchered too because there’s no compliance required as there are no grants. 

But yes, retrofitting demands compromise, system-level thinking and crucially time, which is often at odds with the commercial realities installers are working under.

You’re also right to question whether we’re mainly hearing from dissatisfied homeowners. There’s no doubt there’s a cultural element in the UK where people are far more likely to speak up when something goes wrong than when things are working as expected. I’m sure there are many homeowners who are broadly content and never feel the need to post on a forum or leave a comment.

However, a big part of my premise (and one that’s easy to overlook) is that many homeowners don’t necessarily realise their system is only average.

That was certainly our own experience. For the first couple of winters, we thought our system was somewhere between “OK” and “good”. It heated the house, the bills weren’t outrageous and nothing was obviously broken. It was only later, through comparison, experience, data and deeper understanding, that it became clear the system was actually performing somewhere between average and poor relative to what it should have been capable of.

That’s why I think posing the question is important. If a system delivers heat and hot water, many homeowners understandably assume it’s doing its job well even if it’s running hotter than necessary, cycling more than it should or leaving efficiency on the table. Without a meaningful reference point, acceptable can easily be mistaken for good.

Your own experience is a great illustration of this. From a plumbing perspective, the system wasn’t poorly installed, yet performance was substandard until you intervened. Radiator balancing, emitter characteristics, delta-T selection, pump control… all system-level considerations that weren’t fully accounted for. As you rightly point out, the heat pump is only one component in the system, not the system itself.

The fact that you were able to move to a real-world combined SCOP of 4 through informed tuning is excellent, but it also highlights the wider issue. Most homeowners shouldn’t need to become technically literate or experiment with system settings to unlock the performance they were promised. And not all installers have the time, confidence or system-level training to go beyond “market norms”.

So yes, there are undoubtedly installs that work and just get on with it. But the consistency of the issues being raised, and the number of homeowners who only later realise their system could have been significantly better, suggests this isn’t just a case of negativity bias. It points to an industry that has normalised average outcomes in a technology capable of much more when done properly.

@editor I have been following your journey for sometime and I certainly understand and agree with your points of view. I just think readers should be mindful that "we" may not have full command of all the statistics and there could be more success stories out there than we currently know about, which if known, could paint a slightly different picture 🙂

All along my own journey I had to keep telling myself "As a homeowner I should not have to be doing this" which spanned calculating heat losses to verify my original calculations, diving into the bowels of the heat pump gathering information to calculate heat power generation to compare with what should be being generated etc, etc. As a former engineer I felt comfortable doing this but for the average homeowner like my Father-in-Law this would be impossible.

I draw a parallel between the heating technologies of today and the computer industry. In the computer industry you have Microsoft Windows / Apple and alternatives such as Linux.

To drive Linux successfully you have to be a certain IT geek with reasonable computer knowledge. Microsoft / Apple was designed for mainstream use aimed at people who just need a tool to get on with their job. I think we have the same situation in the heating business, fossil fuel systems for the mainstream user, plug and play, simple to comprehend and then the heat pumps which are the Linux of the industry. However people are now being pressurised for various reasons to switch to heat pumps, likened to Microsoft / Apple users being pressured into only using Linux.

That's fine if the alternative system was suitably advanced to accommodate mainstream users but sadly I feel it is not. Heatpumps are still too geeky and I think the technology has left a large majority of homeowners and installers behind. Taking my own system (Samsung) as an example, to currently achieve the desired room temperature I have had to, through trial and error, find the correct flow temperature and weather curve mainly due to not having data about my old radiators. The heatpump has been told the room is required to be 21C so should be working out for itself what flow temperatures need to be set to to achieve and maintain that temperature.

During my installation I had a Low Loss Header fitted because the manufacture recommends it. I question now if it is needed and if its purely for guaranteeing a minimum flow rate which my simple differential bypass valve is capable of doing the same job thus avoiding all the distortions created by these buffer tanks and headers.

From my perspective we have two problems, technology that is still too geeky and advanced for the average mainstream user and an industry trying to bridge the gap by creating this one size fits all scenario based on frequent "recommendations" when the industry should be producing equipment that is plug and play for the mainstream user, Microsoft and Apple did it!

All in my honest opinion of course

Regards

Posted by: @technogeek

↑

From my perspective we have two problems, technology that is still too geeky and advanced for the average mainstream user and an industry trying to bridge the gap by creating this one size fits all scenario based on frequent "recommendations" when the industry should be producing equipment that is plug and play for the mainstream user, Microsoft and Apple did it!

Microsoft didnt really do it, windows machines to this day confound many users, I was at an event just yesterday where someone could no longer get their scanner to work because windows had apparently randomly decided to default to another device.  It was sorted out by another person who was more IT literate.  This sort of thing appears to be commonplace, there are plenty of people that, presented with a windows machine, wouldn't know how to do anything beyond turn it on and use whats there until whats there stops working for some inexplicable reason.

Apple arguably did do it, but at a price both in terms of £ and independence of the user from the company.  The way they achieved it relied extensively on keeping control end to end, which is where Octopus and Aira, being vertically integrated, should have an advantage.

I do agree that equipment that is more intelligent is an essential part of the way forward (that said some UIs are better than Samsung's which is particularly crude).  However this is only one element.  Installers need to be better educated and so does the general public.  We have, unfortunately, conflated two transitions in the UK, namely the transition from fossil fuels to heat pumps and the transition from high temperature on/off control to low temperature, weather compensated, control.  The latter delivers (in most cases) a much greater level of comfort for a lower cost, whether the heat source is a boiler or a heat pump.  Unfortunately the latter (again whether with a boiler or a heat pump) requires the user to unlearn almost everything they have been told about how to operate heating systems which some seem reluctant to do, and the installer actually to understand heating, which, seemingly, few of ours currently do.

Some mainland European countries made weather compensation on boiler based systems mandatory decades ago.  Unfortunately we didn't which has increased our heating bills for the last two decades by 10%, whilst reducing comfort, and is now impeding a transition!  Im not sure who was accountable for that decision but it is clearly, with 20:20 hindsight, an additional hurdle that we now face.

Posted by: @technogeek

↑

From my perspective we have two problems, technology that is still too geeky and advanced for the average mainstream user and an industry trying to bridge the gap by creating this one size fits all scenario based on frequent "recommendations" when the industry should be producing equipment that is plug and play for the mainstream user, Microsoft and Apple did it!

I disagree that the technology is too geeky, but its implementation is. As a result, I couldn’t agree more about your second conclusion. It’s not difficult to create products that can form components of a wider plug and play solution and the industry really ought to be doing just that.

N.B. I say it’s not difficult simply because I’ve seen first hand just how little hardware is needed to connect the bits of kit up. Everything else is programming and so is perfectly achievable within the industry - all the more obvious since currently it already is achieved by enthusiasts. It’s not technology that’s missing; it’s polish.

Posted by: @editor

↑

but new builds are constantly being butchered too because there’s no compliance required as there are no grants. 

This seems insane to me. It feels like there are several issues in the UK, not even technical, that make heat pump installs fail. Let me preface this by saying that over here in Finland, there is no gas, and we do indeed have one of the lower prices for electricity in the EU (even with out 25.5% VAT). (1)

Heat pumps (both air source and ground source) are everywhere. It's one of three main heating systems available together with district heating and wood. 

Every heat pump install has to be done by a qualified person, and the installations fall under the oversight of The Safety and Chemicals Agency (Tukes). You can look up the installer in an online database (2). If they're not there, skip them. This eliminates most of the possible scams out there: people who are not listed there are not qualified, ever, to install a heat pump (no cowboy builders). Doesn't matter if there are grants involved or not, new build or retrofit, etc. To legally touch a heat pump, an installer must be registered with Tukes. 

If a bodge happens in Finland, the Tukes license acts as a "death penalty" for a business. Losing it means they (the person) can't work in the country again. This tends to keep the quality high. Never mind that we of course have a climate that is brutal: even outside of Lapland we hit -30C to -40C in winter, and it can easily be below -15C for extended periods of time. Non-working heat is not an option.

(1)

(2) Example search on first name: https://rekisterit.tukes.fi/kylma-alan-patevyys?p=0&q=Johannes

Posted by: @upnorthandpersonal

↑

This seems insane to me. It feels like there are several issues in the UK, not even technical, that make heat pump installs fail. Let me preface this by saying that over here in Finland, there is no gas, and we do indeed have one of the lower prices for electricity in the EU (even with out 25.5% VAT). (1)

 

It is crazy but it affects the whole of the UK construction industry, not just heating.  Basically pretty much anyone can set up as a tradesman (with the exception of an electrician) with no qualifications whatsoever, or a very few very specific ones (eg the one to fit unvented cylinders) that take a day or so to 'learn'.  There are regulations for the quality of building, but they are lightly enforced. 

We cant do anything about it without crashing the industry because

(a) we have had, for decades, a culture that does not respect manual work, so its often not rewarded either financially or in terms of cudos.  Thus the better people are put off going into it and

(b) we left the EU so we have no longer have the ready source of the cheap (and often skilled) labour which the industry used to rely on.

Basically we have got ourselves into a hole from which its almost impossible to extract ourselves without a major shift in mindset and a very long and almost impossible to sell process in which prices will have to go up or margins dramatically adjusted.   The latter isnt going to happen and the former is unsaleable politically.

If you have a solution please post it to the Prime Minister as well as on here!

Incidentally the graph of electricity prices you posted debunks the argument that we have the highest in Europe by far.  Its true we are amongst the highest but we share that position with, amongst others, Germany.  The price problem in relation to heat pump adoption is that our gas price is extremely low, about 6p (call it €c) per kWh.  But it suits many people to blame low take up on high electricity prices rather than low gas prices!

Posted by: @upnorthandpersonal

↑

Every heat pump install has to be done by a qualified person, and the installations fall under the oversight of The Safety and Chemicals Agency (Tukes). You can look up the installer in an online database (2). If they're not there, skip them. This eliminates most of the possible scams out there: people who are not listed there are not qualified, ever, to install a heat pump (no cowboy builders). Doesn't matter if there are grants involved or not, new build or retrofit, etc. To legally touch a heat pump, an installer must be registered with Tukes. 

If a bodge happens in Finland, the Tukes license acts as a "death penalty" for a business. Losing it means they (the person) can't work in the country again. This tends to keep the quality high. Never mind that we of course have a climate that is brutal: even outside of Lapland we hit -30C to -40C in winter, and it can easily be below -15C for extended periods of time. Non-working heat is not an option.

Yes, in England, that type of official registration is carried out by companies and trade associations, usually a mesh of them. Some deal with standards, others with training, others with commercial aspects. Politicians are by definition not responsible, as it is not a function of the state. Even when the state gives grants, for example to try to incentivise people to take actions towards net0, the civil servants delegate the checks to private companies. To make it even more interesting, there is no mandatory ID (passports are optional and just related to travel). So the type of system you benefit from cannot unfortunately work  here, too much would need to change. 

And it does not stop here. When a politician shares sensitive government info outside government, this is not necessarily falling into the UK definition of corruption. It may just be improper behaviour. 

I am amazed with how it is not an absolute disaster in all senses and most tradespeople are honest. 

@upnorthandpersonal Tukes eh? That sounds interesting, perhaps we need such an organisation in the UK; we could call it something like the Microgeneration Certifi….. oh! Toodles.

@toodles 

The difference between Tukes and MCS, as far as I can see, is that MCS is optional, and has no power to enforce anything. Tukes is a government safety authority with statutory powers to impose bans and issue fines, not just a industry-led certification scheme. 

Posted by: @batpred

↑

I am amazed with how it is not an absolute disaster in all senses and most tradespeople are honest. 

Agree.  Most small to medium sized tradesmen (well I suppose that should read tradesmen working for small/medium sized businesses) have a reputation to guard and take pride in their work.

The biggest 'problems' so far as I can see are the 'grant harvesters' and of course some jobbing tradesmen working for big builders at minimum price.  

@upnorthandpersonal Yes Indeed! (Sadly) Regards, Toodles.