Posted by: @hughf

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@parmstar that’s the room temperature. I need to know what flow temperature they designed for. This is the temperature of the water that flows round the radiators and makes a massive difference to the cost and performance.

For example, an 11kW ecodan will deliver 11kW at -3, but only when heating water to 35 degrees. That’s fine for running UFH at a proper pipe spacing, but no good for retrofit onto existing radiators.

Ask it to deliver 55 degree water and it will struggle to deliver 7kW (probably)…

Tl;dr - your heat emitters are too small

Actually Mitsubishi is one of the manufacturers that (if you believe the literature) tells the truth with their badged kWh ratings.  If it were Midea or Grant the 11.2 kW would have a 13 or 14 kW badge. It's not far off 11@ -3 and 55. It will be using a lot of power to do it though.

These are the instructions - it may be installed in accordance as it only needs 100mm behind according this unless I’m reading it wrong

Posted by: @parmstar

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no other place to site it unfortunately - the installer never made me aware of any of this and claimed it would be fine as it’s within clearances. It’s also within 1m of the property boundary which is a no no!

The installer lacks imagination.

Even if the side alley is the only possible site (no rear garden), it's still possible to mount it hanging off the house wall on brackets 2m above ground level.

That solution was implemented on sites chosen by OVO for their BEIS-funded trial of HP installations in 250 houses during 2021. It was one of three such HP trials in England, costing £14m. And that begs the question of where is the 'report' which should now be available to us members of the public who have ultimately paid for those 750 installations! 🙄 

BTW, is the large expanse of ice around that Mitsubishi ASHP coming from the condensation dripping from its radiator-style collector? There's meant to be an adequate condensation drain, which in your case would surely take the water to the nearby stoney area!

I doubt MCS would think this installation is compliant. Have you thought to mention this to the installer yet?

@parmstar I was thinking the backup immersion inside the ecodan (if they have them, I thought they did)

You’re running it at 55 now then and the rads are still undersized?

@hughf Hi, it’s a third party 300l joule cylinder has one immersion directly wired to an iboost. Rads aren’t undersized - I went over and above what was asked for by the installer

Posted by: @hughf

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@parmstar that’s the room temperature. I need to know what flow temperature they designed for. This is the temperature of the water that flows round the radiators and makes a massive difference to the cost and performance.

For example, an 11kW ecodan will deliver 11kW at -3, but only when heating water to 35 degrees. That’s fine for running UFH at a proper pipe spacing, but no good for retrofit onto existing radiators.

Ask it to deliver 55 degree water and it will struggle to deliver 7kW (probably)…

Tl;dr - your heat emitters are too small

According to the standard test data for the 11.2kW Ecodan, it should be capable of delivering 10kW of heat energy at an ambient temperature of -7C. But of course if Parmstar's heat loss is over 10kW at -2C, then it will be well over this value at -5C.

I suspect that the 11.2kW Ecodan installed is too small for the property, also having just seen the photo of where the heat pump is located, there is a strong possibility that it is actually in a 'cold well'.

@derek-m a bad design and install in that case! I’m lucky that we have had this cold spell within 3 weeks of install - do you know anything about consumer law? I just want them to rip this thing out and put back my old gas boiler! £850 in 2 weeks - total electric cost so far

Posted by: @parmstar

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do you know anything about consumer law?

This is something I've spent the better part of this year looking into and the protections for homeowners are not great. Despite the MCS and consumer codes saying they're amazing in resolving bodged installs, they're largely toothless in the actions they can take.

Your starting point would be a complaint with the MCS which can escalate to HIES or REA (depending on who you're "insured" with) – this is supposed to be the protection in place that is supposed to rectify poorly designed and installed systems. I've communicated and followed dozens of people that have complained to MCS/HIES/REA and not one matter has been adequately resolved. 

@parmstar, have you filed a compliant with MCS?

@editor I have spoken to them and they advised that I send a formal complaint to the installer in the first instance and allow them time to rectify. My viewpoint is that Considering all of our difficulties and problems with the ASHP it is clear to us that the product that we have purchased has not been sold to us as described, not of satisfactory quality and it is not fit for purpose. Under the consumer rights act we would like to reject the product within the 30 days of purchasing (24/10/22).

@parmstar - if/when you do file complaints, you should include references to this topic on the RHH Forum. Don't try to just prove the case on your own. There are others here who can do some of the heavy lifting with you!

On a wider issue, remember that MCS is a government-created mechanism to ensure that standards are published and adhered to. If it's failing to achieve this, then the correct route is via your MP. Such a 'failure' may not be the fault of MCS. It could be that BEIS has capped their expenditure, leaving them with insufficient resources to adequately perform what's required. Even so, that should form part of a formal question from your MP to the Secretary of State for BEIS, who is currently Rt Hon Grant Shapps (Welwyn & Hatfield).

We can't expect changes unless/until the relevant people in government are made aware of the issues!

If these problems were occurring in my area, I would be ensuring that my Borough (or District) Councillor was aware. As the Local Planning Authority (LPA) they have powers of enforcement to ensure that changes to buildings comply with the Building Regulations. I don't believe your installation complies with Part-L (Heating & Power).

I would also raise the matter with the County Councillor for my ward. The County level of government has the remit for Trading Standards.

At both level of local Government there will be Councillors who will be concerned at the prospect of constituents who are being left with sub-standard installations. It's also most likely that those Councils will have passed resolutions declaring a Climate Emergency (because most have!). Your installation probably falls short of that 'Adopted Policy'.

Posted by: @parmstar

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Under the consumer rights act we would like to reject the product within the 30 days of purchasing

The Consumer Rights Act extends beyond the initial 30-day period. That clause is intended for customers who require money back on faulty goods and services. In your case that won't work anyway because the installer could remove the equipment, thereby leaving you in a house without heating and hot water! 😰 

Beyond that you have the 12-month period in which you can continue to require that the system must be brought up to satisfactory working condition at his expense. (Have you settled the Final Invoice by now?)

A shrewd installer would be joining in this discussion as matters are put right. Not only would it serve as a good advertisement, but they'd have access to top-level technical input from ASHP gurus for free!