Posted by: @heacol

@mjr Do you ask how much the tyres cost when you buy a car? I doubt it. I sell a product, not components.

Not the same thing at all.  Everybody knows when they buy a car they get 4 tyres and all the other bits that go with them.  And they can compare prices and reviews of different cars from different, well known suppliers and make a choice.  If anything goes wrong with their new car, there is a warranty and an extensive dealer network to help them.  Not that it's likely they will need this because everyone knows cars are really reliable nowadays. 

Imagine if you bought a car and you didn't even know what a tyre was.  And you'd vaguely heard the term "windscreen wiper" but weren't sure if you really needed any.  And your car was assembled by a small company you'd never heard of, with no guarantees of performance and at best a questionable warranty, amid extensive rumours of overcharging and poor performance and reliability. And you had no idea how to drive your new vehicle. 

I think you might want a bit more assurance.

Posted by: @kev-m

 

Imagine if you bought a car ...

...and you had no idea how to drive your new vehicle.

 

Let's face it, @kev-m, that happens quite often on our roads. But that's a different conversation entirely 😏 

This all boils down to integrity on both sides. We have had many rouge customers that expect you to do works outside the contract and then refuse to pay and make false complaints when we refuse to do what they demand.

We make the customer sign a contract that specifies exactly what we will do, exactly what we will not do, and who is responsible for what. You would be surprised how many times customers do not do what is agreed and expect you to pick up the pieces when it does not work.

I am not from this country and I still, after 20 years, cannot get over the general lack of integrity in all sectors of society in this country. There are exceptions, and that is why I am careful who I deal with. I walk away from many jobs as they are not worth it.

Posted by: @heacol

This all boils down to integrity on both sides. We have had many rouge customers that expect you to do works outside the contract and then refuse to pay and make false complaints when we refuse to do what they demand.

We make the customer sign a contract that specifies exactly what we will do, exactly what we will not do, and who is responsible for what. You would be surprised how many times customers do not do what is agreed and expect you to pick up the pieces when it does not work.

I am not from this country and I still, after 20 years, cannot get over the general lack of integrity in all sectors of society in this country. There are exceptions, and that is why I am careful who I deal with. I walk away from many jobs as they are not worth it.

I can't argue with that although I have not lived anywhere else than the UK. And also that there are as many rogue customers as traders.     

Posted by: @heacol

This all boils down to integrity on both sides. We have had many rouge customers that expect you to do works outside the contract and then refuse to pay and make false complaints when we refuse to do what they demand.

We make the customer sign a contract that specifies exactly what we will do, exactly what we will not do, and who is responsible for what. You would be surprised how many times customers do not do what is agreed and expect you to pick up the pieces when it does not work.

I am not from this country and I still, after 20 years, cannot get over the general lack of integrity in all sectors of society in this country. There are exceptions, and that is why I am careful who I deal with. I walk away from many jobs as they are not worth it.

I work in IT and many years ago when I was working for a computer consultancy the proprietor used to have an initial meeting with every prospective customer. In that meeting, he'd state explicitly that the meeting was so they (the customer) wanted to do business with him and if he (the owner of the consultancy firm) wanted to do business with them. A number of potential clients were surprised they were about to be vetted as well, but all appreciated the focus on looking for a good long-term fit between parties.

@heacol, I totally agree with you about just how widespread the lack of integrity is. Cowboy builders are far too easy to find and far too difficult to eradicate. Unscrupulous customers wanting to "get one over" on tradespeople who're just trying to make a living are far too common. All my wife and I look for is a good job for a fair price, and if that means rejecting what doesn't feel right then that's what we'll do.

I might well disagree with you about whether or not a quote should be itemised, but in the wider context of believing people should approach business in a fair and honest way I'm 100% behind you.

Posted by: @kev-m

I can't argue with that although I have not lived anywhere else than the UK. And also that there are as many rogue customers as traders.     

Agreed

@heacol, that is a fair point because there are very often two sides to the story. At least you have a contract that details the scope of work.

By stark contrast, one of the MCS-accredited installers that "quoted" for our heat pump did it by sending us a two line text message with the price and that it included two Ecodans. Price was well over £20,000 if I remember correctly – I wish that I hadn't deleted the text message from three years ago. 

@editor More fool you, that 2 line text is not MCS compliant, technically you would have got a heat pump installation for free, if the MCS system worked properly and did what it says it would do, fat chance though.

MCS states that you must have an itemized, legal quotation, that does not mean a breakdown of costs, it means a full scope of works and that is what we do.

I am not from this country and I still, after 20 years, cannot get over the general lack of integrity in all sectors of society in this country. There are exceptions, and that is why I am careful who I deal with. I walk away from many jobs as they are not worth it.

We've lived in a few countries and the way business in the UK is conducted is generally ethical, but labour costs are very, very expensive comparatively speaking.

What has surprised me is that given the amount of regulations and standards that are in place, there are an awful lot of bodged projects and installations (not just in heat pumps). 

@heacol, if I'd know that then, I would have hired them and claimed my free system 🤣 

@editor What do you consider expensive? You are prepared to pay a lawyer, doctor, accountant,  ect (white collar job) £150-£500.00  and hour or even more, they have a 3-5 year degree and a few years of experience. What is the difference between them me and many other highly competent, trained tradesmen who, may also, have degrees or the same time in an apprenticeship (me included) and many many years experience (I have a degree, over 30 years experience with heat pumps, electrics and controls and hold qualifications in all plus a DEA and a geothermal driller)?

As the saying goes, pay peanuts, you get monkeys.

I cannot get over how little good tradesman are paid and how poorly they are valued in this country.

I just remembered that when they sent the text message I replied and asked them to send across a more detailed breakdown (very fitting of this thread) via email, which I have just found. Admittedly, it's a lot more detailed than the two line text message – feel free to stop reading when you get bored with sifting through all the superfluous detail:

2 no 11.2 kW Ecodan Monobloc Mitsubishi heat pumps
1 no 300 litre ehpt 300 hwc  preplumbed cylinder
All pipe work required to run the new system along with controls and ancillary equipment for the day to day running of the heating / hot water circuits
Total price £19948.00 

The company was/is My Fusion Heating. Perhaps not surprisingly, the URL is dead so they're probably not around any more.