Posted by: @majordennisbloodnok

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if we ever got into any situation that overwhelmed those plans metered and unmetered properties would be rationed to the same degree.

I don't disagree with that.

But water companies are incentivised to fit Smart Meters which incorporate remote control commands.
It's a lot cheaper and quicker than sending staff down the roads to manually turn off stop-cocks.

When we next have a region which is predicted to run out of water, I doubt that legislation is going to deter the urgent need to restrict supplies.

Parliament would be more than willing to pass an emergency Bill in those circumstances.

Unlike electricity, we can't simply draw water from France or Norway via an interconnector!

In areas which exhibit surplus generation from solar, we are turning to desalination.
It uses lots of Joules, but if that energy was going to be discarded anyway, then it doesn't matter.

Both Cornwall and the Western half of Devon have surplus generation from solar and wind.

Whereas Devon also enjoys lots of rainfall from the SW slopes of Dartmoor and Exmoor, Cornwall has fewer water resources.
Moreover, the population of Cornwall doubles during the summer tourist season.

SouthWest Water is therefore investing in desalination projects for Cornwall.

That isn't an available option in the South East quarter of England.

Worse still, that's where government is giving planning permission for the construction of massive data centres.
Their water-consumption requirements are extremely high.

My present view is that water resources should be brought into the oversight of the new Regional Energy Strategic Plan organisations (RESPs).
Local knowledge is required...
... and Ofwat has let us down badly over the last 36-years of its existence.

Guess why most of Arqiva's water meter networks are in the South East?

PS. I have a Well 😎 

Posted by: @transparent

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When we next have a region which is predicted to run out of water, I doubt that legislation is going to deter the urgent need to restrict supplies.

Parliament would be more than willing to pass an emergency Bill in those circumstances.

That's exactly the bit I disagree with, though.

A drought doesn't suddenly pounce on you; there's a whole load that will have gone on in the run-up. As I said before, the water companies are required to have and disclose drought plans that are regularly maintained and updated. By talking about the scenario you describe, you're implying those plans are not followed by the water company and are not overseen by either Ofwat or their successor. You're also conflating restriction of supplies with shutting off of services, and even if stopping piped supply of water became necessary it's far easier to turn off way further back in the infrastructure than individual houses, smart meter or no.

All that said, I'm going to repeat what I wrote earlier in that this is still not helping work out whether smart meters are accurate enough or not. All the side issues raised are definitely interesting and worthy of discussion in their own right but I'd prefer this thread not be sidetracked from a pretty straightforward query.

Posted by: @majordennisbloodnok

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... helping work out whether smart meters are accurate enough or not.

Fortuitously I have a copy of a letter from the relevant Minister of State to my MP:

I would like to reassure you that all smart metering equipment used in Great Britain for
billing must be accurate. Accuracy levels for both smart and traditional meters must
comply with relevant legislation on measurement, which is the Measuring Instruments
Regulations (SI 2016/1153).

Of course, the Minister didn't actually write that all by himself.

But I was later able to correspond directly with the senior civil servant who provided the technical details in that letter.
He is suitably qualified and does understand the issues.

@majordennisbloodnok we have had a water meter for 10 years now and financially have been better off with it as there are only two of us in a 5 bed house.

However our local water company (Anglia Water) have been rolling out new smart water meters in the area over the last few months ( there was no choice in having one ) with the main reason of being able to quickly check the system for leaks. The downside of course (as has already been suggested) is this now opens customers up to the possibility of dynamic pricing so during hot dry summers the price can possibly be doubled  or more to control water usage.

Thanks, @technogeek.

So far as I can make out, whilst dynamic pricing would be perfectly technically possible with smart water meters, any significant swings in price would not be possible without the backing of the regulator. Admittedly Ofwat has been less than ideal in its baring of teeth on customers’ behalves but even they have enforced significant  moderation in price rises compared with what the water companies wanted.

Ultimately I have a choice; either I trust the system regulating the water companies is operating more or less acceptably or I invest in enough kit to go completely off grid water-wise.

All that said, your experience of saving money with a meter is useful. I don’t suppose you’ve made any kind of measurements or guesstimates to in any way confirm the volume you were billed for is within spitting distance of actual consumption, did you?

@majordennisbloodnok I do not have recent figures sorry.

When we (2 adults and 2 teenagers) moved into our current house (2016) water was based on a rateable value of a 5 bedroom house which was marginally more expensive based on estimates plus we knew the kids would be moving out a year or two later. I had to make a decision about going on a meter which I knew would get cheaper after the kids moved out based on future estimates.

As there is no option to go back to rateable value I have not bothered to check recent price comparisons but at least with a meter you have the option of controlling your consumption and hence cost. Rateable value you cannot change on a yearly basis and probably will continually go up!

To give you an idea we currently spend £40 per month on water but it has been as low as £16 per month before today.

Thanks, @technogeek; yet more colour to the picture and additionally confirming everything I'm getting to understand. I've now managed to find some other information online and can now draw a number of conclusions.

Firstly, I took a look into the statutory instrument @transparent highlighted and read the definitive statements on the accuracy that is expected of a water meter - smart or otherwise. In fact, within the bounds that they're measuring different things, the accuracy required of a water meter is pretty much the same as that expected of an electricity meter and that of a gas meter. If anything, the water meter has slightly lower permitted tolerances, but not to any appreciable degree. As a result, if I'm prepared to accept my leccy consumption is being measured accurately enough for my bills to be fair, I have to accept my water consumption will be similarly fairly gauged.

Secondly, I found another water company's FAQs on smart meters (here) that addresses directly the issue of remote disconnection. I quote here:

Can you turn my water off remotely?

Unlike energy meters, our water meters are installed on a manual stop tap and these can’t be accessed remotely.

Water companies, by UK law, cannot disconnect your water supply.

Our smart water meters are sending us leak and flow information remotely over a secure network and has no remote access from Essex & Suffolk water and the meter. The meter has no control over the actual flow or the stop tap.

In short, it's meter, not a valve.

Thirdly, regarding the question of dynamic pricing I found that Ofwat have expressed support for further research into what they call surge pricing for times of scarcity. Interestingly, the studies that have been carried out have been worded in a very telling way. They talk about customers being charged a lower price for the first 5000 litres rather than a higher price for exceeding 5000 litres. That strongly implies that in times of drought prices would go up across the board (including for unmetered homes) and accessing a "discount" would only be possible with a smart water meter. This doesn't surprise the cynic in me but the general message is that avoiding a smart meter will not keep you immune from the effects of dynamic pricing; it'll merely mean you'll be penalised for part of your consumption (if you exceed a threshold) rather than being penalised for all your consumption.

Thanks, everyone, for your input. I'm happy my questions are now all answered and that this thread can now go wherever anyone wishes to take it.

Posted by: @technogeek

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...

To give you an idea we currently spend £40 per month on water but it has been as low as £16 per month before today.

Just to give a sense of scale, I've used the CCW water meter calculator web app to estimate our charges with a water meter. Bear in mind this is only for fresh water supply since we have no sewer and therefore no surface water or waste water charges.

Our most recent annual bill was £600 near as dammit. Our estimated metered bill is, all bar the shouting, £250 (and that's after I went back and increased the various elements to be on the safe side before recalculating the estimate). That means an estimated weekly bill of about a fiver or just over £20 per month. A saving of about £350 per year. I suspect that's because of us having a lot of water butts and a water butt pump to feed the hosepipe for the veg instead of watering from the mains.

Even with dynamic pricing going wild, I reckon it'd be hard to close that scale of gap.

I personally wouldn’t have a smart water meter. We’ve had a water meter in various houses for years and found we saved about 50%of water bill originally. There’s two of us in a larger house and apart from watering garden shrubs in drought years we have few profligate habits.

Now with a hosepipe ban watering shrubs with a watering can is tedious, but we’ve done it.

Previous experience of my mother in law was her water bill suddenly jumped up and she didn’t notice but my husband who had started helping her with bills did notice. It took him an incredible amount of effort to get them out to investigate a potential leak in the front garden. But once a hole was dug the leak was found. Then further efforts for a refund for her.

But what would happen with a smart meter, immediate legal action seeking a fine alleging hose pipe use? Given the unethical behaviour of water companies I would certainly not trust them an inch. Ofwat are spineless and have allowed them to award themselves financial bonuses whilst discharging sewage into our chalk streams and onto our beaches.

@judith

Posted by: @judith

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I personally wouldn’t have a smart water meter

With Anglia Water it was a compulsory upgrade it seems. The official line is to enable them to identify leaks more accurately.

From what I can gather the smart meter records your usage history so a leak will look very different to the use of a hosepipe, many hours compared to say half an hour