Sounds interesting @heacol!

And I'm really tickled by @William1066's idea that it is not only installers that need to be educated, but also heat pump owners. As a species, we have a certain understanding of heat in our lizard brain. Heat is a warm fire. Comes on quickly. Produces palpable heat. Burns or glows in front of our eyes. If you want more heat, throw more fuel on. If you want less, let the fire die down. In transitioning people away from combustion as the heat source, we are fighting habits of producing heat that have been with us for thousands of years. So we're not just changing technology, but are having to change people's culture and their way of living. The 'human factors' side of engineering.

But I get the impression that both installers and manufacturers don't actually WANT to engage with the human factors.

For instance, most manufacturers and installers don't want heat pump owners to go anywhere near settings. They hide them in menus and want to control them remotely. Because owners will just interfere and mess up all the installer's settings.

That's totally understandable. Many owners are a bit dense and uninterested. They just want the heat pump to work... they don't want to understand how it works. So the reaction is to take control away from the owner as much as possible.

Here's a genuine question for people on this forum. Do you think we should aim for:

Future A in which owners understand their heating systems and take responsibility for how they use their heat pumps

or

Future B in which the installer and manufacturer take all the responsibility off the owner. The owner just says 'too hot/too cold' or 'too expensive' and the installer and manufacturer tries to get the heat pump to perform a certain way. 

The pros and cons of Future A is that, at the end of the day, people can really control their heat pumps for themselves and the installers and manufacturers don't have to baby them. But then you need education for heat pump owners.

The pros and cons of Future B is that you don't have stupid heat pump owners messing things up because the professionals take everything out of their hands. But, on the other hand, the service isn't personalised very much. And you just end up with lots of grumpy customers who never quite get what they want, and constantly ring the installer on a Friday night saying 'come out to look at my heat pump right now, I set the thermostat at 21, but it's actually 20.'

@heacol thats great, better to spend time helping make sure system is done well in first place, than go in and fix  a bad one. And you will be supplying as well so that makes sense now. so you'll be able to advise (Based on criteria, constraints etc) pros and cons of brand A vs B vs C vs D vs E?  just let me know when you're open for business or a sneak-preview!

A thought (towards @benguela point as well) 

vendor-independent, consistent, low cost , remote performance monitoring as part of the package?

• geek types like me look at their own data and tweak settings ("Future A")
• non-geek types, some external party looks at their data (for a monthly fee)  and is able to respond (whether remotely or locally) to performance issues ("Future B")

Posted by: @benguela

↑

Sounds interesting @heacol!

And I'm really tickled by @William1066's idea that it is not only installers that need to be educated, but also heat pump owners. As a species, we have a certain understanding of heat in our lizard brain. Heat is a warm fire. Comes on quickly. Produces palpable heat. Burns or glows in front of our eyes. If you want more heat, throw more fuel on. If you want less, let the fire die down. In transitioning people away from combustion as the heat source, we are fighting habits of producing heat that have been with us for thousands of years. So we're not just changing technology, but are having to change people's culture and their way of living. The 'human factors' side of engineering.

But I get the impression that both installers and manufacturers don't actually WANT to engage with the human factors.

For instance, most manufacturers and installers don't want heat pump owners to go anywhere near settings. They hide them in menus and want to control them remotely. Because owners will just interfere and mess up all the installer's settings.

That's totally understandable. Many owners are a bit dense and uninterested. They just want the heat pump to work... they don't want to understand how it works. So the reaction is to take control away from the owner as much as possible.

Here's a genuine question for people on this forum. Do you think we should aim for:

Future A in which owners understand their heating systems and take responsibility for how they use their heat pumps

or

Future B in which the installer and manufacturer take all the responsibility off the owner. The owner just says 'too hot/too cold' or 'too expensive' and the installer and manufacturer tries to get the heat pump to perform a certain way. 

The pros and cons of Future A is that, at the end of the day, people can really control their heat pumps for themselves and the installers and manufacturers don't have to baby them. But then you need education for heat pump owners.

The pros and cons of Future B is that you don't have stupid heat pump owners messing things up because the professionals take everything out of their hands. But, on the other hand, the service isn't personalised very much. And you just end up with lots of grumpy customers who never quite get what they want, and constantly ring the installer on a Friday night saying 'come out to look at my heat pump right now, I set the thermostat at 21, but it's actually 20.'

If ASHPs are to be mass-market it has to be a version of B. but with some expectation management included.   

Hardly anyone tinkers with their car any more, mainly because they don't have to because cars are so good now.  And to most people, central heating systems are even less interesting than cars. 

@kev-m You are correct, and I am 3/4 of the way through developing exactly that. It has already been independently tested by Ulster University and as taken 7 yeas to get here. We are not too far room the launch. There will also be a heat pump combi version, which is a direct like for like replacement for a combi boiler, not requiring a hot water cylinder.

The reason it has taken so long is because we have had to self fund it, as BEIS and OFGEM did not deem it initiative enough to supply us with funding, otherwise it would already be here.

Don't quite follow... What are you building Brendon? 

Posted by: @heacol

↑

we do not have X-ray eyes and cannot see weather insulation levels,

My point is to differentiate between

1. is the heat pump operating at the maximum possible efficiency for that customer, given their circumstances (budget, what they are prepared to change/live with) - something a suitably qualified installer should provide in clear language
     and
2. the cost of running it - determined by the weather [which changes through the year], the property(size, insulation etc) and owners preferred comfort levels [assuming an optimal install ... see point 1] - and influenced by point 1 as well.

...existing plumbing has been installed in a competent manner.

... under floor heating, not being designed for low temperatures

This is something that is part of the educating the customer piece that I think could be done with some well thought through templates that installers can use. 

As there are many variables, this will not be easy, but I think it is doable.  e.g. as per my simple example below.

Posted by: @benguela

↑

Don't quite follow... What are you building Brendon? 

@heacol So a product that will replace smart thermostats?

Or one that will replace both your smart thermostat and your onboard heat pump controller?

It would be great if the smart thermostat and the heat pump controller were really one thing. Also, if it could talk to a solar pv installation, that would be great.

But are the heat pump manufacturers OK with it? Your controller would override their installed onboard controllers, not so?

Posted by: @benguela

↑

@heacol So a product that will replace smart thermostats?

Or one that will replace both your smart thermostat and your onboard heat pump controller?

It would be great if the smart thermostat and the heat pump controller were really one thing. Also, if it could talk to a solar pv installation, that would be great.

But are the heat pump manufacturers OK with it? Your controller would override their installed onboard controllers, not so?

By the way, there is no such thing as a smart thermostat, they are just very expensive light switches with internet control.

@heacol taking control of the heat pump over modbus?

So we know that Ultimate Renewables is coming soon to address training of heat pump installers.

It looks like the “industry” has identified a weak point in the installer base and in the past fortnight I have seen two organizations offering heat pump installation courses and I think OFTEC will also be launching a training course for heat pumps.

@heacol, are there any plans for the industry to accredit heat pump installers in some way? Seeing an installer with six training badges/certificates as part of their profile still doesn’t mean they’re competent if the courses they’ve undertaken haven’t taught them how to install things properly.

Precisely. Who is training the trainers?