Posted by: @jamespa

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Unfortunately installers all too frequently don't use the correct numbers

Then they should be made to follow good engineering practice and have calculations checked and then signed off. 

Posted by: @jamespa

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Surely you can accept that neither is perfect (except possibly with a newbuild where you.know the construction and ach accurately),  together they are better than either alone.

I accept neither is perfect. But the system doesn't seem to work with new builds either. Often see those quotes as 10+kW, which is insane. Even if built to minimum building regs and huge.

Using bad numbers is just poor, the installer or assessor should be knowledgeable enough to know if the numbers look bad or really just don't sound right and the outcome doesn't look correct. There needs to suitable checks and balances. But the issues are as detailed below.

Had a conversation with the brother in law about his son getting a new EPC, has added cavity wall insulation, 400mm of loft insulation, new windows etc. all the assesser was interested in was the log burner and knocking points of the score, everything else because a receipt wasn't available didn't count. Even though no receipt available for the stove either he could downgrade the property without cause but not improve.

The whole industry is p!ss poor.

A spreadsheet should be fine, but the inputter is often not. Gas consumption can be ok, but may not be dependent on how the heating is used. Brother in law again, uses best part of no gas, because they light the log burner it's cheaper. How do you legislate for that? You end up with a heat pump way to small.

Sensible data collection, build into a proper spreadsheet - with suitable checks and balances is the only way.

Posted by: @jamespa

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Posted by: @jamespa

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Unfortunately installers all too frequently don't use the correct numbers

 

 

Then they should be made to follow good engineering practice and have calculations checked and then signed off. 

Yes but we have to deal for now with the world as it is not as we would like it to be (whilst seeking to change it at the same time)

Posted by: @Anonymous

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Gas consumption can be ok, but may not be dependent on how the heating is used. Brother in law again, uses best part of no gas, because they light the log burner it's cheaper. How do you legislate for that? You end up with a heat pump way to small.

Householder questionnaire.  If answers are wrong then the liability lies with the householder (just like insurance, if you don't declare a material fact, it's your problem).  Why ignore the good data that many will have because some data is poor when you can discover that by asking the householder.

Posted by: @Anonymous

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Sensible data collection, build into a proper spreadsheet - with suitable checks and balances is the only way.

Which could include something based on gas consumption as part of the check and balance.  In a retrofit there may well be things about the construction which are unknown and unknowable.  At least if there is some independent measure the uncertainty can be flagged and dealt with.

I reiterate, for now we have to deal for now with the world as it is not as we would like it to be!

Posted by: @matwin

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As a complete newcomer to SHPs I have to say that there is room for your advice and simplification - written up as a "Key steps to sourcing a succesful heat pump" for us novices.

Mars, a one or two pager that holds the attention, minimises the PhD physics and empowers the consumer to deal with the variable competencies/helpfulness of installers!

I’ve actually been working on something along these lines for a while now, but time (and the lack of hours in the day) has delayed things a bit. It addresses many of the things you’ve mentioned while connecting and linking some of the great content that is already available in this website. 

Posted by: @Anonymous

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Why should the owner really need to understand or delve into any data - you are paying a hefty price for the installer to know and select correctly. If that doesn't happen the MCS system is flawed and needs fixing. Which is really a different kettle of fish.

We are saying the same thing - the ordinary prospective heat pump owner should not have to delve deep into technical data. The essential key facts, including heat pump output at low OATs (using a standard one say -3 or -5 of zero, it doesn't matter which as long as all use the same standard OAT) should be on all the marketing literature, and it is reasonable to expect prospective owners to take an interest in that number, it is a simple number that tells them how powerful their heat pump will be when it has to work hard. The current badge kW ratings tell them what their heat pump will do on a sunny day in spring when it doesn't have to work hard and the rated output isn't needed - a meaningless number.

There are numerous threads on this forum and elsewhere, all of which lead to the same conclusion about MCS, it is a waste of space - or worse.

Posted by: @Anonymous

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Spreadsheet is fine, with the correct numbers.

Sure, but as @jamespa says, you need to know what the correct numbers are. Lazy installers don't care, they just cook the books to get a biggish number - basically doing what they always did, but dressing it up in fancy calculations. The problem is it is just not sensible practical or even reasonable to expect the majority of prospective heat pump owners to do their own spreadsheet calculations. But they can do a sanity check, along the lines @jamespa suggested. Even the smart meter isn't essential, though it does make things easier. The sanity check just needs daily meter readings, daily mean OATs and an estimate of current boiler efficiency. If the prospective owner isn't familiar with spreadsheets to do the necessary plot, they will usually know someone who is.  

The more fundamental problem is the industry tolerates incompetence. The supposed regulators, MCS and the other collections of goons who are meant to look after consumers interests don't care. Heat pump owners with shoddy or worse installations are understandably reluctant to sue for breach of contract. Is it any surprise that the vast majority of prospective owners look at the mess the industry is in (not to mention the outlay involved) and say, nah, I'll just stick with gas for now. 

Posted by: @Anonymous

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A spreadsheet should be fine, but the inputter is often not.

It's not unknown for the spreadsheet to be flawed. I've already mentioned the hidden wrong Midea output numbers in the freedom heat Pumps spreadsheet. Air changes per hour have already been mentioned, and I suspect most 'inputters' (not the most gracious of words) just accept the default values. In the case of old non-standard modern construction eg my 18th century solid stone walls the U values can be hopelessly out of whack. The problem with spreadsheets is they just provide so many opportunities to get things wrong, either by mistake, or by intent (I'm going to recommend a 12kW heat pump, now where's the spreadsheet to back that up?).   

Edited to correct typos not meaning

@cathoderay Yes, I have been thinking along the lines of a spreadsheet designed to have an x kWh rating placed in the ‘starter block’ and then the other cells are autofilled with imaginative numbers that will impress the reader. Takes no more than perhaps a few minutes to input the name, address and  approximate dimensions of property and perhaps, just for effect a photo or two and then press enter…….. there you are, the x kWh heat pump you wanted to install is magically the right one for the job. Job Done!😉 Just need to think of a snazzy name for it now. Rewards, Toodles.

@toodles - I'll write the press release - Toodles Pips the Heat Pump Pimp

@cathoderay Ah yes, that’s the name! The Heat Pimp, It’ll save a fortune for every installer! (When interviewed, installers all said ‘Great App, does the job in 5 minutes - and we can leave the home owner to foot the heating bills!’) Toodles.

Hi, I recently came across your website whilst researching all thing energy saving & heating etc. I live in a 1960's pre-fab (Doran) with an original plan to bulldoze and develop. Best laid plans & life etc got in the way. Now looking at all options.

I have an old LPG condensing boiler (2008) and a single pipe radiators, double glazing, good loft insulation and a suspended floor without any insulation.

Not  sure if I should ask this question here but...I have had a survey carried out recently which has confirmed an EPC of G. The surveyor has told me that he would propose installing External Wall Insulation together with Solar and a Heat Pump to lower the EPC to E or D.

My bungalow is 1000ft up and very exposed to high winds and winter temperatures regularly -5 degrees with wind chill of -10 or more.

I am a pensioner and have severe mobility issues really struggling in the cold and need to make the right decision.

Is an EPC of E/D sufficiently good enough so that a heat pump will work effectively? 

My gut feeling is no and that would need to be A/B. EWI and a complete new LPG boiler & Rads would be a better solution for my situation.

Appreciate any thoughts?

Cheers

Rocky

Hi @rocky-a  and thank you for joining us here.

There are a great many options for you, and I hope we don't needlessly restrict these at this early stage of deliberations.

Posted by: @Anonymous

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I live in a 1960's pre-fab (Doran) with an original plan to bulldoze and develop.

Just so others here understand the implications...

Demolishing a dwelling down to the damp-proof course allows a self-builder to reclaim all VAT on the re-build.
That applies even if you employ sub-contractors to undertake the work.

That's a massive financial saving, especially as seven of the fifteen stages of Building Control checks are for below-ground work.
Rebuilding from DPC upwards means that those existing underground works can be utilised.

Can I ask if you have completely ruled out a demolition and rebuild?

Would you consider using SIP (Structural Insulated Panel) technology which can be lifted into place by crane in 2-days flat?

@transparent Hi and thanks for the response. SIPS was the original plan but sadly no longer a viable option even saving the existing groundworks.

OK. Next question:

Given your mention of mobility issues, would you need to be hiring in all labour required to undertake building works, insulation and heating installation?

Or do you have access to friends and family who would be willing to assist with some tasks?

Please don't restrict your responses solely to aspects of heating.
We can address anything on this forum, including building work and permissions which might be required.