Posted by: @jamespa

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We have strong consumer protection but sadly the human race throws up some scum who will always find a way to exploit.

My experience with 'strong consumer protection' is that in many cases it's worth nothing.

We moved into a new build flat with a poorly installed and essentially uncommissioned heating system which was far more expensive that it should have been, and which was incapable of providing ample hot water while the heating was needed and we went through nearly every avenue available to us and still came up empty.

• SOP for complaints across much of the corporate world now is to do nothing. Put the customer in a loop of rejection and 'you need to talk to those other people' with no actual pathway to getting your grievances corrected.
• Escalating to c-suite contacts is simply ignored.
• MPs/MSPs are similarly ignored or talked around (in our case, no action was taken on the issues, but the builder immediately jumped on the contact as a marketing opportunity).
• New Build Ombudsman services are opt-in for builders. Your builder hasn't opted in (a fair few of the big builders are not)? Sorry, you need to ask someone else (dunno who).
• Go after seller's solicitor for allowing them to sell something not as described via the legal ombudsman? Sorry, you should talk to the new build ombudsman. Oh, they're not signed up? I didn't realise they needed to be. Oh well. Still not our problem.
• Contact building standards to raise clear issue of falsified commissioning documentation. Well, that's terrible, but we don't actually have any enforcement power once the completion certificate is granted. Sorry.
• Contact trading standards. They just log your complaint and might give the company a slap on the wrist in 10 years if enough other people complain.
• Actual legal action? I hope you have a big ol' heap of money available to finance the action.

In the end, it was cheaper and less stressful to fix the issue ourselves, and while it annoys me that that's exactly what these companies are banking on, we had to do what was best for us.

Posted by: @steelbadger

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Actual legal action? I hope you have a big ol' heap of money available to finance the action.

Small claims court is pretty cheap and sometimes the threat is sufficient to do the job.  The law is on your side and they know it.

Posted by: @steelbadger

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In the end, it was cheaper and less stressful to fix the issue ourselves, and while it annoys me that that's exactly what these companies are banking on, we had to do what was best for us

Indeed and it's what I would often advise people.  

Unfortunately the human race throws up some scumbags and no law can stop that, only deal with the consequences!

Posted by: @jamespa

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Small claims court is pretty cheap

In money, maybe, but in time and stress it can be very expensive. And while you or I might have the mental resources to be able to put together a case, not everyone does. The law itself may well be weighted in favour of the consumer, but the process of getting to law is rather heavily weighted against the consumer. 

Posted by: @cathoderay

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Posted by: @jamespa

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Small claims court is pretty cheap

In money, maybe, but in time and stress it can be very expensive. And while you or I might have the mental resources to be able to put together a case, not everyone does. The law itself may well be weighted in favour of the consumer, but the process of getting to law is rather heavily weighted against the consumer. 

I agree, we had many good tradespeople but also some scumbags. One knew the ins and outs of the law better than us.

Whoever uses the law has to follow it to the letter and all time and effort they expend, they are not spending to cope/manage the issue.  

Having said that, consumer law, reputation impact, etc is what limits the damage they can make, to consumers and good traders alike.  

Posted by: @batpred

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Posted by: @cathoderay

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Posted by: @jamespa

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Small claims court is pretty cheap

In money, maybe, but in time and stress it can be very expensive. And while you or I might have the mental resources to be able to put together a case, not everyone does. The law itself may well be weighted in favour of the consumer, but the process of getting to law is rather heavily weighted against the consumer. 

I agree, we had many good tradespeople but also some scumbags. One knew the ins and outs of the law better than us.

Whoever uses the law has to follow it to the letter and all time and effort they expend, they are not spending to cope/manage the issue.  

Having said that, consumer law, reputation impact, etc is what limits the damage they can make, to consumers and good traders alike.  

 

All agreed, but what realistic alternative system is there given that there are scumbags out there!  

I did once get a building inspector involved with a tradesman dispute (my view was that what they had done failed the building regs)  Obviously that meant I had to pay the building control fee.  They were pretty helpful but ultimately I still got scammed!

Posted by: @jamespa

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Posted by: @batpred

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Having said that, consumer law, reputation impact, etc is what limits the damage they can make, to consumers and good traders alike.  

All agreed, but what realistic alternative system is there given that there are scumbags out there!  

I think many things, consumer law can help in some cases and certification schemes can be a good system (but not when they behave like trade bodies or lobby to constrain diy). In that case I mentioned, having a basic personal ID system would have helped..

Posted by: @jamespa

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All agreed, but what realistic alternative system is there given that there are scumbags out there!  

Shoot the b@stards? Simple, but effective.

Seriously though, I know, its a real caught between a rock and a hard place problem. On paper, the courts are the least bad option, but in practice, in reality, they are in effect unavailable to many, for whatever reason. Perhaps we should encourage more people to take out legal expenses insurance, but that risks making fat lawyers and underwriters even fatter, and a rise in spurious claims. Perhaps we should make the Small Claims Court process even simpler. and less intimidating.    

@cathoderay There is always the 7.62 1in5 link of social media, I use it as my weapon of last resort but when I was getting nowhere with my installer I responded to one of their national facebook adverts with images of my install highlighting all the issues. Turns out their subcontractors hadn’t been passing on my issues (so they say) very quickly they got in touch and asked me to remove the post, which I graciously agreed to do once they rectified all the faults. The post is still there, most of the faults have been rectified, but not all!

Posted by: @grantmethestrength

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7.62 1in5 link of social media

Not sure what that is! But then I am an old fogey who counts himself lucky to know what FOMO and SLAP mean.

I agree, social media can be used to hold businesses to account, and I have done it myself on a few occasions with partial success. It's not unknown for a business to issue a public apology ('we're very sorry to hear your heat pump journey wasn't what you expected' and similar variants of the usual management speak gibberish) and then do nothing. You also have to put up with the pro-business apologists who will claim you are acting unreasonably by rushing to social media, I've always had excellent service from XYZ (so what? I am tempted to reply) etc etc.

But my concern is about the substantial minority who don't have ready access to all the tools you and I might have at our disposal. These people are just as likely, if not more likely, to suffer from a bad installation, yet they are very poorly equipped to deal with the position they find themselves in when things do go wrong. This may be a particular problem with schemes like ECO4, which target the vulnerable. How do they get a remedy. without being ground into the dirt in the process? If you are already on the breadline, will you have the £205 needed to make a claim (£3,000.01 to £5,000)? If miraculously you win, what are your chances of getting the judgement enforced?

I don't have a magic answer, but at the same time I don't think we should forget these people exist. Some of them turn up here on the forum, and we do what we can, but it can be hard work for the person wronged, even when we do what we can to help.  

Posted by: @cathoderay

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I don't have a magic answer, but at the same time I don't think we should forget these people exist. Some of them turn up here on the forum, and we do what we can, but it can be hard work for the person wronged, even when we do what we can to help.  

Completely agree.

My view is pretty settled.  It's bad that scammers exist, worse still that they so often target the vulnerable.  I feel sorry for the victims and would like to support them.

At the same time I don't think we can ever expect such issues to go away nor can we forever blame government when they don't.  It's a war, not a battle, and it's a war we are doomed to continue fighting forever because of the nature of human beings.

The two paragraphs can co-exist, and by recognising this we deal with reality rather than fantasy.

@cathoderay lol 7.62 1in5 link, is the ammunition used for the General Purpose Machine Gun aka the GPMG, AKA the General, AKA the Gimpy, where every 5th round is a tracer so you can keep the weapon on target.

In use with the British Army since 1963 and a very effective way to end an argument! But as you say may be a little excessive in a dispute about a bad installation.

@grantmethestrength But… Isn’t that what Bullet in boards are for?😉